Kids who die before age 8 DON'T automatically go to the C.K.

[_Yoda]

Tobin, in the quote from Brigham Young which YOU stated here,

All intelligent beings who are crowned with crowns of glory, immortality, and eternal lives must pass through every ordeal appointed for intelligent beings to pass through, to gain their glory and exaltation.

YOU are missing an understanding. All intelligent beings who gain their glory and exaltation pass through ordeals appointed by God the Father. They are not appointed by you.

You have no knowledge of what those things are. They are different for each person per God's jurisdiction. We are all his individual children, and as such, our trials are individual and different.

According to our doctrine, babies who die before the age of 8 are saved because they have already met whatever was demanded of them in the pre-existence. They are among the choicest of spirits, just as the handicapped are.

[_Tobin]

Oh my word! False doctrine is being taught in General Conference.

Because all children who die before the age of accountability are pure, innocent, and wholly sin-free, they are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven (see D&C 137:10; Mosiah 3:18).

The Special Status of Children
MERLIN R. LYBBERT
April 1998 General Conference

http://www.LDS.org/general-conference/1 ... n?lang=eng

My goodness, if only he had checked with Tobin first. It's a shame the church allows GAs to have such a dim understanding of LDS teachings.

Wouldn't be the first nor last time false doctrine was taught in General Conference. However, as I've said, it is complete non-sense.

Everyone must be tested and tried. The fact a baby (spirit) returns to the CK to be saved because it died as a fetus is unremarkable. They must still be tested and tried by the Lord, and choose to follow him before they can be resurrected and obtain exaltation in the CK. Babies that die as fetuses are not auto-magically resurrected on the spot, given exaltaiton and a pat on the butt and said - good going Charlie. That's just more of your ridiculous non-sense.

[_Tobin]

Tobin, in the quote from Brigham Young which YOU stated here,

All intelligent beings who are crowned with crowns of glory, immortality, and eternal lives must pass through every ordeal appointed for intelligent beings to pass through, to gain their glory and exaltation.

YOU are missing an understanding. All intelligent beings who gain their glory and exaltation pass through ordeals appointed by God the Father. They are not appointed by you.

You have no knowledge of what those things are. They are different for each person per God's jurisdiction. We are all his individual children, and as such, our trials are individual and different.

According to our doctrine, babies who die before the age of 8 are saved because they have already met whatever was demanded of them in the pre-existence. They are among the choicest of spirits, just as the handicapped are.

I believe in a just and equitable God Liz. It would be completely unfair to say that someone that was aborted gets a free pass into exaltation, while others, who are not, suffer in this life and are tried and many often fail. Everyone must be tested and tried at some point before they can obtain exaltation. It is only just.

[_beastie]

Tobin,

As fascinating as your personal quasi-LDS beliefs may be, they're not the focus of this discussion. LDS teachings are clear on this subject, and you are in a personal state of apostasy with your reformulation of those beliefs.

But it is interesting to see the extent some believers will go to when confronted with this information. I was surprised to see the Tobinish bent some on MAD were willing to take. They were willing to discard a very basic teaching of the LDS church, that had supposedly been directly revealed to Joseph Smith by God Almighty, in order to preserve their understanding of polygyny in the church, which is that there are too many females who need worthy mates, here and in the CK.

The truth is that polygyny was never about that in the early church. It was about increasing the number of offspring of certain MALES, not increasing the general offspring of females, which polygyny does not do. (monogamous women have a higher birthrate) The only people who benefited, in terms of birthrate, from polygyny were the "alpha males" who collected a lot of wives. It has to do with the idea of a royal bloodline.

Members are uncomfortable with that idea because the real people being thrown under the bus are other worthy males, that just don't happen to be the alpha males. So, instead, they choose to reject a basic teaching of the LDS church.

[_beastie]

I believe in a just and equitable God Liz. It would be completely unfair to say that someone that was aborted gets a free pass into exaltation, while others, who are not, suffer in this life and are tried and many often fail. Everyone must be tested and tried at some point before they can obtain exaltation. It is only just.

You can believe whatever you want, and reject whatever church teachings you want. Just don't pretend the rest of us have a "dim understanding" of those same teachings.

by the way, if I were a believer, I would respond to you thusly: you have no idea what tests and trials those "special spirits" already passed with flying colors in the pre-existence, that allowed them this privilege.

[_Tobin]

beastie,

It is a very basic teaching. But it doesn't mean what you think it means. As I've pointed out, the prophets have taught that all that are to obtain exaltation must be tested and tried. There are no exceptions. Spirits who die as fetuses, will still have to go through the same tests and trials as us at some point. It is necessary for the judgements of God to be just on the rest of us.

[_Chap]

I believe in a just and equitable God Liz. It would be completely unfair to say that someone that was aborted gets a free pass into exaltation, while others, who are not, suffer in this life and are tried and many often fail. Everyone must be tested and tried at some point before they can obtain exaltation. It is only just.

Notice how Tobin assumes the right to assert that his deity has exactly those characteristics that Tobin approves of.

But if you challenge him to show what reason he has to believe that any existent deity actually has such characteristics, apart from the fact that he finds them congenial, what answer do we get?

Talk with the Panda.

[_Tobin]

I believe in a just and equitable God Liz. It would be completely unfair to say that someone that was aborted gets a free pass into exaltation, while others, who are not, suffer in this life and are tried and many often fail. Everyone must be tested and tried at some point before they can obtain exaltation. It is only just.

You can believe whatever you want, and reject whatever church teachings you want. Just don't pretend the rest of us have a "dim understanding" of those same teachings.

by the way, if I were a believer, I would respond to you thusly: you have no idea what tests and trials those "special spirits" already passed with flying colors in the pre-existence, that allowed them this privilege.

That's non-sense. We all passed the trials in the pre-existence. That is why we were granted bodies in the first place and are not demons bound by Satan.

[_Polygamy-Porter]

beastie,

It is a very basic teaching. But it doesn't mean what you think it means. As I've pointed out, the prophets have taught that all that are to obtain exaltation must be tested and tried. There are no exceptions. Spirits who die as fetuses, will still have to go through the same tests and trials as us at some point. It is necessary for the judgements of God to be just on the rest of us.

Orly.

So then all of the unfortunate humans born mentally handicapped are really getting a raw deal.

They waste their entire mortal experience only to be put at the end of the line in heaven where they must prove themselves.

How will they be tested? Won't they ummm already know about God/Jesus/Joe/LDS??

So f'n stupid.

[_Tobin]

beastie,

It is a very basic teaching. But it doesn't mean what you think it means. As I've pointed out, the prophets have taught that all that are to obtain exaltation must be tested and tried. There are no exceptions. Spirits who die as fetuses, will still have to go through the same tests and trials as us at some point. It is necessary for the judgements of God to be just on the rest of us.

Orly.

So then all of the unfortunate humans born mentally handicapped are really getting a raw deal.

They waste their entire mortal experience only to be put at the end of the line in heaven where they must prove themselves.

How will they be tested? Won't they ummm already know about God/Jesus/Joe/LDS??

So f'n stupid.

They don't have the mental capacity to be tested in this life. When they die, they will not remain in that state. You might however.