Tobin wrote:Easily done. See the quotes below. Not once do they say everyone, but fetuses. Everyone must be tested and tried. Period. So, stop pretending you understand a thing about Mormonism and spouting your non-sense.
Tobin is employing that popular logical fallacy known as argument from silence. None of the quotes he provides are addressing the issue of those who are born and die before they have a chance to undergo all these trials. He is relying on the absence of a statement regarding an issue they were not addressing to prove that in some magic way, babies who die in infancy have to endure some purgatory-like state of affairs before they can be admitted to the Celestial Kingdom. But this is not what D&C 137:10 says. The words of the prophet are categorical and unequivocal: And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.
Yes, Tobin, many posters on this board understand a great deal about Mormonism as taught by the LDS Church. What we don't know about is your musical chairs version of Mormonism where the answers keep changing whenever you get caught contradicting yourself. It takes a special kind of compulsive navel gazing to assert that nobody understand a thing about Mormonism because they are neither familiar with nor interested in your idiosyncratic, make-it-up-as-you-go pseudo-Mormonism.
Nor is your personal version of Mormonism relevant to the OP. The OP was made in reference to what the LDS Church teaches, not what the voices in your head tell you. The LDS Church does in fact teach that dying before the age of 8 years-old ensures a one-way ticket to the Celestial Kingdom, per D&C 137 and Mormon 8.
Following are some frequently asked questions concerning the status of children who die before the age of accountability.
Are they automatically saved? Elder Bruce R. McConkie wrote: “To this question the answer is a thunderous yes, which echoes and re-echoes from one end of heaven to the other. Jesus taught it to his disciples. Mormon said it over and over again. Many of the prophets have spoken about it, and it is implicit in the whole plan of salvation. If it were not so the redemption would not be infinite in its application. And so, as we would expect, Joseph Smith’s Vision of the Celestial Kingdom contains this statement: ‘And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.’ [ D&C 137:10 .]
“It is sometimes asked if this applies to children of all races, and of course the answer is that when the revelation says all children it means all children. There is no restriction as to race, kindred, or tongue. Little children are little children and they are all alive in Christ, and all are saved by him, through and because of the atonement. . . .
“They are saved through the atonement and because they are free from sin. They come from God in purity; no sin or taint attaches to them in this life; and they return in purity to their Maker. Accountable persons must become pure through repentance and baptism and obedience. Those who are not accountable for sins never fall spiritually and need not be redeemed from a spiritual fall which they never experienced. Hence the expression that little children are alive in Christ. . . .
“Truly it is one of the sweetest and most soul-satisfying doctrines of the gospel! It is also one of the great evidences of the divine mission of the Prophet Joseph Smith. In his day the fiery evangelists of Christendom were thundering from their pulpits that the road to hell is paved with the skulls of infants not a span long because careless parents had neglected to have their offspring baptized. Joseph Smith’s statements, as recorded in the Book of Mormon and latter-day revelation, came as a refreshing breeze of pure truth: little children shall be saved . Thanks be to God for the revelations of his mind where these innocent and pure souls are concerned!” ( “The Salvation of Little Children,” Ensign , Apr. 1977, pp. 4, 7 .)
Even though little children will be saved, does that mean they will have eternal life? Elder McConkie explained: “Eternal life is life in the highest heaven of the celestial world; it is exaltation; it is the name of the kind of life God lives. It consists of a continuation of the family unity in eternity. . . . children will be saved in the celestial kingdom. Salvation means eternal life; the two terms are synonymous; they mean exactly the same thing. Joseph Smith said, ‘Salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in nothing else.’ ( Lectures on Faith, pp. 63–67.) We have come to speak of this salvation as exaltation—which it is—but all of the scriptures in all of the standard works call it salvation. I know of only three passages in all our scriptures which use salvation to mean something other and less than exaltation.” (“Salvation of Little Children,” p. 5.)
President Joseph Fielding Smith added:
“The Lord will grant unto these children the privilege of all the sealing blessings which pertain to the exaltation.
“We were all mature spirits before we were born, and the bodies of little children will grow after the resurrection to the full stature of the spirit, and all the blessings will be theirs through their obedience, the same as if they had lived to maturity and received them on the earth.
“The Lord is just and will not deprive any person of a blessing, simply because he dies before that blessing can be received. It would be manifestly unfair to deprive a little child of the privilege of receiving all the blessings of exaltation in the world to come simply because it died in infancy. . . .
“Children who die in childhood will not be deprived of any blessing. When they grow, after the resurrection, to the full maturity of the spirit, they will be entitled to all the blessings which they would have been entitled to had they been privileged to tarry here and receive them.” ( Doctrines of Salvation, 2:54; see also Mosiah 15:25 .)
Why do some children die and others live? Are those who die better off than those who remain in mortality? Elder McConkie wrote:
“We may rest assured that all things are controlled and governed by Him whose spirit children we are. He knows the end from the beginning, and he provides for each of us the testings and trials which he knows we need. President Joseph Fielding Smith once told me that we must assume that the Lord knows and arranges beforehand who shall be taken in infancy and who shall remain on earth to undergo whatever tests are needed in their cases. This accords with Joseph Smith’s statement: ‘The Lord takes many away, even in infancy, that they may escape the envy of man, and the sorrows and evils of this present world; they were too pure, too lovely, to live on earth.’ ( Teachings, pp. 196–97.) It is implicit in the whole scheme of things that those of us who have arrived at the years of accountability need the tests and trials to which we are subject and that our problem is to overcome the world and attain that spotless and pure state which little children already possess.” (“Salvation of Little Children,” p. 6.)
Will children who die before the years of accountability ever be tested in the way that other mortals are tested? President Joseph Fielding Smith said: “Satan cannot tempt little children in this life, nor in the spirit world, nor after their resurrection. Little children who die before reaching the years of accountability will not be tempted.” ( Doctrines of Salvation, 2:57; see also D&C 29:47 ; 45:58 .)
What will happen to children in the Resurrection? President Joseph F. Smith wrote: “Joseph Smith taught the doctrine that the infant child that was laid away in death would come up in the resurrection as a child; and, pointing to the mother of a lifeless child, he said to her: ‘You will have the joy, the pleasure, and satisfaction of nurturing this child, after its resurrection, until it reaches the full stature of its spirit.’ There is restitution, there is growth, there is development, after the resurrection from death. I love this truth. It speaks volumes of happiness, of joy and gratitude to my soul. Thank the Lord he has revealed these principles to us.” ( Gospel Doctrine, pp. 455–56.)
It is a very basic teaching. But it doesn't mean what you think it means. As I've pointed out, the prophets have taught that all that are to obtain exaltation must be tested and tried. There are no exceptions. Spirits who die as fetuses, will still have to go through the same tests and trials as us at some point. It is necessary for the judgements of God to be just on the rest of us.
Absolutely not! Any idea that they will be tested in paradise or during the millennium or after the millennium is pure fantasy. Why would a resurrected being, who has already come forth from the grave with a celestial body and whose salvation is guaranteed, be tested? Would the Lord test someone who cannot fail the test and whose exaltation is guaranteed? For that matter, all those billions of people who will be born during the millennium, when Satan is bound, “shall grow up without sin unto salvation” (D&C 45:58) and therefore will not be tested. “Satan cannot tempt little children in this life, nor in the spirit world, nor after their resurrection. Little children who die before reaching the years of accountability will not be tempted.” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:56–57.) Such is the emphatic language of President Joseph Fielding Smith.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What I find strangest about Tobin is not his insistence on a version of Mormonism so different from that actually taught by the CoJCoLDS, but his assumption that everyone who questions his one-man religion does so only because they are too stupid to understand the obvious.
That makes Tobin the only intelligent person in the universe ...
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Chap wrote:What I find strangest about Tobin is not his insistence on a version of Mormonism so different from that actually taught by the CoJCoLDS, but his assumption that everyone who questions his one-man religion does so only because they are too stupid to understand the obvious.
That makes Tobin the only intelligent person in the universe ...
You just can't admit the appeal of his dogmatic solipsism. But maybe that's because you're not Tobin, and therefore your existence is questionable at best.
Tobin wrote:They don't have the mental capacity to be tested in this life. When they die, they will not remain in that state. You might however.
Congrats asshole! With that ad-hominem, you are now considered a mo'pologist. Call Danny as I hear he is hiring suckup wannabees to make him feel important.
You defenders are all the same. Instead of addressing the issues, and how they make you feel, you get scared and attack the person making the inquiry.
New name: Boaz The most viewed "ignored" poster in Shady Acres® !
There is no infant or child that has died before arriving at the years of accountability, but what is redeemed, and is therefore entirely beyond the torments of hell. … I will defy any man to find in any of the records of divine truth any ordinance instituted for the salvation of little innocent children; it would be unnecessary on the face of it, and the only thing that can be found is where Jesus took the little ones in his arms and blessed them, which is and would be perfectly right to do according to the order of God. But the sprinkling of infants or the doctrine that infants go to hell under any circumstances, is a doctrine ordained of man and not of God, and is therefore of no avail and entirely wrong and displeasing in the sight of God. So much about the infants. … They are redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ.
Children are innocent before the Lord; as to their death and the cause thereof, that is in the hands of God, and we should not complain of the Lord or his dispensations any more than Job did. … There is this consolation connected with the matter—they are innocent, they are not in transgression. They have paid the law of death which God passed on Adam and all his posterity; but when their spirits left their bodies and got into the spirit world their trouble and affliction were over. … They will come forth out of their graves in the morning of the resurrection, … clothed with glory, immortality and eternal life, in eternal beauty and bloom, and they will be given into the hands of their parents, and they will receive them in the family organization of the celestial world, and their parents will have them for ever. They will live as long as their God lives. This, to Latter-day Saints, who believe in the resurrection, should be a source of comfort and consolation.
… The question may arise with me and with you—“Why has the Lord taken away my children?” But that is not for me to tell, because I do not know; it is in the hands of the Lord, and it has been so from the creation of the world all the way down. Children are taken away in their infancy, and they go to the spirit world. They come here and fulfil the object of their coming, that is, they tabernacle in the flesh. They come to receive a probation and an inheritance on the earth; they obtain a body, or tabernacle, and that tabernacle will be preserved for them, and in the morning of the resurrection the spirits and bodies will be reunited, and as here we find children of various ages in a family, from the infant at the mother’s breast to manhood, so will it be in the family organization in the celestial world. Our children will be restored to us as they are laid down if we, their parents, keep the faith and prove ourselves worthy to obtain eternal life; and if we do not so prove ourselves our children will still be preserved, and will inherit celestial glory. This is my view in regard to all infants who die, whether they are born to Jew or Gentile, righteous or wicked. They come from their eternal father and their eternal mother unto whom they were born in the eternal world, and they will be restored to their eternal parentage; and all parents who have received children here according to the order of God and the holy priesthood, no matter in what age they may have lived, will claim those children in the morning of the resurrection, and they will be given unto them and they will grace their family organizations in the celestial world. …
… I will say to our mourning friends, your children are taken away and you cannot help it, we cannot any of us help it; there is no censure to be given to parents when they do the best they can. A mother should not be censured because she cannot save her sick child, and we have to leave these things in the hand of God. It will be but a little time until they will be restored to us. …
With regard to the growth, glory or exaltation of children in the life to come God has not revealed anything on that subject to me, either about your children, mine or anybody else’s, any further than we know they are saved. And I feel that we have to put our trust in the Lord in these afflictions, we have to lean upon his arm and to look to him for comfort and consolation. We do not mourn under these afflictions as those who have no hope; we do not mourn the loss of our children as though we were never going to see them again, because we know better. The Lord has taught us better, and so has the gospel; the revelations of Jesus Christ have shown us that they will be restored to us in the resurrection of the just. …
… I pray my Heavenly Father that he will bless Brother and Sister Wheeler [a couple whose four-year-old and six year-old sons had recently died] in their bereavement, and give them his Holy Spirit, that, when they lie down at night and rise in the morning and miss their children, they may feel to commit themselves into the hands of the Lord, and realize that their separation from their little ones is not for ever, but that in a little time they will be restored to them. This applies to us all in the loss of our children. We lay them away in the grave, but they will come forth in the morning of the resurrection, and if we are faithful to the truth, we shall receive them and rejoice with them.
Let me point out one little thing and knock down the house of cards some people here have constructed. We are tested and tried by the Lord. It was the Lord that tested and tried Abraham (not Satan). Satan is merely an accuser and attempts to lead us away from the Lord. And he will be bound during the millenium. That does not mean people (including those that died as fetuses) will not be tested and tried by the Lord during this time. We are always free to follow the Lord or choose not to. That should be obvious since Satan (and 1/3 of host of heaven) fell and they were in the very presence of God himself because they were unwilling to do as the Lord asked.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:Let me point out one little thing and knock down the house of cards some people here have constructed. We are tested and tried by the Lord. It was the Lord that tested and tried Abraham (not Satan). Satan is merely an accuser and attempts to lead us away from the Lord. And he will be bound during the millenium. That does not mean people (including those that died as fetuses) will not be tested and tried by the Lord during this time. We are always free to follow the Lord or choose not to. That should be obvious since Satan (and 1/3 of host of heaven) fell and they were in the very presence of God himself because they were unwilling to do as the Lord asked.
Let me point out one thing: your personal ideas about religion are 100% irrelevant to this thread. The OP is discussing the ramifications of LDS doctrine (not Tobin doctrine) in light of real-world infant mortality estimates and the LDS teaching that ALL children who die before the age of accountability are guaranteed to go to the Celestial Kingdom.
Darth J wrote: Let me point out one thing: your personal ideas about religion are 100% irrelevant to this thread. The OP is discussing the ramifications of LDS doctrine (not Tobin doctrine) in light of real-world infant mortality estimates and the LDS teaching that ALL children who die before the age of accountability are guaranteed to go to the Celestial Kingdom.
Exactly.
Tobin, please refrain from further derailing this thread.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
Tobin, please refrain from further derailing this thread.
The 'report' button is beckoning ...
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.