Are Republicans opportunistic liars, or just stupid?

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_Kevin Graham
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Re: Are Republicans opportunistic liars, or just stupid?

Post by _Kevin Graham »

If they don't, then that which is produced will no longer be produced, and that which people do want to buy will continue to be produced. But it is production that creates demand, and it is production - the creation of wealth - that expands the size of the economy.


You keep reasserting an already well refuted position as if by reasserting it enough times, you can hope to make it true. What you don't seem to understand is that produced products fail on the market all the time. People don't demand them just because they're "there" on the shelves. Demand exists whether production exists or not. Do you really think the demand for groceries would cease if we suddenly found the groceries stores fillied with tires and porcelain dolls? No, those producing goods and services do so based on anticipated demand. You have it backwards.

True, that which is produced must have a market, but buying products - spending money - cannot be understood to "drive" or ground economic growth and prosperity.


That is exactly what it does. Without consumer spending you have no economy. On the other hand, you can produce all the goods and services you want and it will be for nothing if people do not have the money to pay for them. This is basic math Droopy. Take for example all the neighborhoods that were being developed during the collapse of the housing industry. It was the consumer's inability to purchase that cause the crash, despite the rapid development of further goods in the market. Here in Atlanta there are still homes that have been sitting for years and no one buys them because they don't have the money. Many development areas have home half built that some of us think will never be finished. According to you, producing these goods is going to create wealth just because they were produced. Well, for whom? The developers who abandoned these projects and went bankrupt? Appparently not.

The reason should be obvious: all the money used by consumers to buy x has itself been generated by other productive economic activity, such as producing y, maintaining m which produces y, creating r which is used in the manufacture of x, and on and on


Yes, it is the engine of economic activity which is driven by the desire for wealth creation, which can only come from consumer spending. It is why economists can predict with confidence a surge in economic activity in the fourth quarter because of the holiday season.

While without buying there is no production, without production there is neither buying nor anything to buy.


How does this change the fact that without consumer spending, you have no economy? You can produce all you want but if few people are buying, you have a poor economy. That is our current situation right now, and the reason people aren't buying is because they aren't making enough money. Wages are at all time lows while workers are working harder than ever. In the meantime the wealthy have so much money they don't know what to do with it, so they just sit on it. That's what supply side economics has given us.

Deep fear of Obama is wholly justified by both his policies and his intellectual and political background.


It is based in ignorance, pure and simple. Obama has accomplished far more than any of the previous Presidents in recent memory, and he has done so in the face of unprecedented opposition. The fear mongering you've been reduced to is typical. Calling Obama a socialist and anti-free market is laughable to anyone familiar with his policies.

This thinking is exactly how the Great Depression was created by government out of a severe recession that should have been over in a few years.


No historian on the Great Depression would ever say such an idiotic thing. The Great Depression wasn't caused by government. In fact, government is what saved us from the depression. Keynesian economics is what got us out of it the same way it is is what saved us from another depression in 2009.

Business is not going to invest again, nor are people going to spend money (people who are out of work and on food stamps save, they do not spend, unless massive general price inflation incentivizes such spending of limited funds)until Obama is gone


You must be living on the moon. Businesses are already investing. That's what they do.

because the chaotic regulatory and tax burden he has created


There is no regulatory or tax burden. That's myth propagated by the ignorant.

along with a crippling national debt and a alarmingly devaluing currency, have created a toxic economic environment.


Thanks to the economic policies of the Supply-Siders Reagan and Bush.

Business now faces among the highest corporate tax rates in the industrialized world


Actually that is a lie and you know it. The effective tax rate is roughly 15% thanks to corporations taking advantage of tax havens and loopholes in the system. According to billionaire Warren Buffet:

The interesting thing about the corporate rate is that corporate profits, as a percentage of GDP last year were the highest or just about the highest in the last 50 years. They were ten and a fraction percent of GDP. That’s higher than we’ve seen in 50 years. The corporate taxes as a percentage of GDP were 1.2 percent, $180 billion. That’s just about the lowest we’ve seen. So our corporate tax rate last year, effectively, in terms of taxes paid for the United States, was around 12 percent, which is well below those existing in most of the industrialized countries around the world. So it is a myth that American corporations are paying 35 percent or anything like it…Corporate taxes are not strangling American competitiveness.


It is amazing that people would think they could still get away with this lie.
_krose
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Re: Are Republicans opportunistic liars, or just stupid?

Post by _krose »

EAllusion wrote:
krose wrote:Droopy:
... fundamental praxological problem...

Me:
What is this word, praxological, that you continue to use?

Praxeology is a term...

I was pointing out an amusing situation: a person showing off by using an obscure word, but consistently misspelling it.
"The DNA of fictional populations appears to be the most susceptible to extinction." - Simon Southerton
_Droopy
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Re: Are Republicans opportunistic liars, or just stupid?

Post by _Droopy »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Droopy wrote:That's called rational self interest, otherwise known as working for a living.


I can comment further on the many problems with you saying this, if you like, Droopy.


Yes, I would, and please make sure to provide, when you do, the source for your claims, why the source should be accepted as credible, and what measures you've taken to verify the sources credibility.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

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_EAllusion
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Re: Are Republicans opportunistic liars, or just stupid?

Post by _EAllusion »

Droopy wrote:I'm not going to bother trying to educate yet another economic illiterate in here, Delusion. Please don't bother with the pose.

The odds that I know more about Austrian economics than you is probably above 99%. Recall that I'm well-read in libertarian circles and held office in the local LP where I had to routinely interact with libertarians of all stripes, including your goldbug, Von Mises types.

Though, in fairness, one wouldn't need to know much of anything about it to be economically educated. It's not like the Austrians are part of any standard degree. But don't let writing for your audience get in the way of awkward attempts to seem learned that come off as anything but.
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Are Republicans opportunistic liars, or just stupid?

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Selling the ‘Supply-Side’ Myth

Image

January 27, 2012

Exclusive: Any rational assessment of America’s economic troubles would identify Ronald Reagan’s reckless “supply-side” economics as a chief culprit, but that hasn’t stopped Republican presidential hopefuls, led by Newt Gingrich, from selling this discredited theory to a gullible GOP base, reports Robert Parry.


By Robert Parry

Despite Newt Gingrich’s claim that “supply-side” economic theories have “worked,” the truth is that America’s three-decade experiment with low tax rates on the rich, lax regulation of corporations and “free trade” has been a catastrophic failure, creating massive federal debt, devastating the middle class and off-shoring millions of American jobs.

It has ”worked” almost exclusively for the very rich, yet the former House speaker and the three other Republican presidential hopefuls are urging the country to double-down on this losing gamble, often to the cheers of their audiences — like one Florida woman who said she had lost her job and medical insurance but still applauded the idea of more “free-market” solutions.


Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich posing with his third wife, Callista
Gingrich even boasts of his role in pioneering these theories of massive tax cuts favoring the rich, combined with sharp reductions in the role of government. That approach, once famously mocked by George H.W. Bush as “voodoo economics,” was supposed to spur businesses to expand production (the “supply side”), thus creating jobs and boosting revenues from all the commercial activity.

“I worked with Ronald Reagan to develop supply-side economics in the late ’70s, along with Jack Kemp and Art Laffer and Jude Wanniski and others,” Gingrich declared at a recent town hall event. “We ended up passing it into law in ’81. At the time it was very bold. People called it ‘voodoo economics.’ It had one great virtue: it worked.”

But that is not what the historical record really shows.

In 1980, I was working as an Associated Press correspondent covering budget and economic issues on Capitol Hill – and at the time, the “supply-siders” had two key arguments in their favor: first, the economy had stagnated in the 1970s largely due to oil price shocks, inflation and an aging industrial base.

Their second key advantage was that nobody could say for sure what the results of the “supply-side” experiment would be. There was little empirical data to assess how radical tax cuts would play out in the modern economy. One could make common-sense judgments, as George H.W. Bush had done with his “voodoo” remark, but you couldn’t see the future.

No More Mystery

Now, however, with three decades of experience with the experiment, the fallacies of “supply-side” economics are no longer a mystery. For instance, a major obstacle to today’s economic recovery has been the absence of “demand-side” consumers, not the availability of money to build more productive capacity.

And the reason that there are fewer consumers is that the Great American Middle Class, which the federal government helped build and nourish from the New Deal through the GI Bill to investments in infrastructure and technology in the Sixties and Seventies, has been savaged over the past three decades.

Though many Americans were able to cover up for their declining economic prospects with excessive borrowing for a while, the Wall Street crash of 2008 exposed the hollowing out of the middle class. So today, businesses are sitting on vast sums of cash – some estimates put the amount at about $2 trillion.

And the reasons for this dilemma are now well-known: first, when companies have expanded in recent years, the modern factories have relied on robotics with few humans required; second, the companies put many manufacturing sites offshore so they can exploit cheap labor; and third, the shrinking middle class has meant fewer customers, leaving corporations little motivation to build more factories.

For Americans, this has represented a downward spiral with no end in sight. American workers, whether blue- or white-collar, know that computers and other technological advancements have made many of their old jobs obsolete. And modern communications have allowed even expert service jobs, like computer tech advice, to go to places like India.

While painful to millions of Americans who find their talents treated as surplus, these developments do not by themselves have to be negative. After all, humans have dreamed for centuries about technology freeing them from the grind of tedious work and freeing up society to invest in a higher quality of life, for today’s citizens and for posterity.

The problem is that the only practical way for a democratic society to achieve that goal is to have a vibrant government using the tax structure to divert a significant amount of the super-profits from the rich into the public coffers for investments in everything from infrastructure to education to arts and sciences, including research and development for future generations, even possibly Gingrich’s “big idea” of a colony on the moon.

In fact, that kind of virtuous cycle was the experience of the United States from the 1930s through the 1970s, with the federal government taxing the top tranches of wealth at up to 90 percent and using those funds to build major electrification projects like the Hoover Dam and the Tennessee Valley Authority, to educate World War II veterans through the GI Bill, to connect the nation through the Interstate Highway system, to launch the Space Program, and to create today’s Internet.

Out of those efforts emerged robust economic growth as private corporations took advantage of the nation’s modern infrastructure and the technological advancements. Millions of good-paying jobs were created for the world’s best-trained work force, giving rise to the Great American Middle Class. The obvious answer was to keep this up, with the government investing in new productive areas, like renewable energy.

Demonizing ‘Guv-mint’

Instead, facing economic headwinds in the 1970s, caused in part by rising energy costs, Americans grew anxious about their futures, making them ripe for a new right-wing propaganda campaign demonizing “guv-mint” and telling white men, in particular, that the “free market” was their friend.

Blessed with a talented pitch man named Ronald Reagan, “supply-side” became the new product to sell. After taking office, Reagan pressed for a sharp reduction in the marginal tax rates, slashing the top rates for the wealthy from around 70 percent to 28 percent. Along with the tax cuts, Reagan also initiated an aggressive military buildup.

The results were devastating to the U.S. fiscal position. The federal debt soared, quadrupling during the 12 years of Reagan and Bush Sr. As a percentage of the gross domestic product, federal debt was actually declining in the 1970s, dropping to 26 percent of GDP, before exploding under Reagan, rising to 41 percent by the end of the 1980s. The shared wealth of the country also diverged, with the rich claiming a bigger and bigger piece of the national economic pie.

The nation’s debt crisis only began to subside after tax increases were enacted under President George H.W. Bush and President Bill Clinton, with Clinton’s tax hike pushing the top marginal rate back up to 39.6 percent. At the time, Gingrich warned that the Clinton tax hike would lead to an economic catastrophe.

The actual result was a booming economy, spurred strongly by the federal government’s new “information super-highway,” the Internet. The Clinton years also saw low unemployment and a balanced budget by the late 1990s. The debt-to-GDP measure declined from about 43 percent to 33 percent and was on course toward zero within a decade.

Ironically Gingrich also claims credit for that because – as House speaker – he worked with Clinton on some cost-cutting measures, but Clinton credits the 1993 tax increase, which passed without a single Republican vote, as the key factor in the budget turnaround.

After George W. Bush claimed the White House in 2001, “supply-side” dogma was back in vogue. Bush pushed through more tax cuts mostly for the rich, reducing the top marginal rate to 35 percent and creating an even bigger tax break for investors, cutting the capital gains rate to 15 percent. Combined with Bush’s two wars and other policies, the surplus soon disappeared and was replaced by another yawning deficit.

Even as most Americans struggled to hold a job and pay their bills, America’s super-rich lived a life of unparalleled luxury. With this concentration of money also had come a concentration of power, as right-wing operatives were hired to build a sophisticated media apparatus and think tanks to push – often with populist rhetoric – the policies that were dividing the country along the lines of a pampered one percent and a pressured 99 percent.

Many Americans, especially white men, heard their personal grievances echoed in the angry voices of Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Michael Savage and Glenn Beck – all well-compensated propagandists for “the one percent.”

Lesson Unlearned

Now, looking back over the economic and fiscal history of the past three decades, you might think that few Americans would be fooled again by this sucker bet on “supply-side.” But the Tea Partiers and many rank-and-file Republicans seem ready to put what’s left of their money back down on the gambling table.

All four remaining Republican hopefuls – Mitt Romney, Rick Santorum, Ron Paul and Gingrich – have proposed lower tax rates especially on the rich with the same enduring but fanciful faith in “supply-side” economics.

Gingrich has gone so far as to advocate eliminating the capital gains tax entirely. It’s already down to 15 percent, meaning that many super-rich, from financier Warren Buffett to Mitt Romney, can live off their investments and pay a lower tax rate than what many middle-class Americans pay on their wages and salaries. In a recent Florida debate, Romney noted he would pay virtually no federal income tax under Gingrich’s plan.

The Republicans seem to be counting on the parallel propaganda campaign of demonizing “guv-mint.” They’re pinning their hopes on an ill-informed electorate (especially white men) siding with “the one percent” over their own working- and middle-class interests.

The GOP hopes also may hinge significantly on how determined some whites are to get the country’s first black president out of the White House. Historically, demagogic U.S. politicians have had great success in exploiting racial resentments, although these days often with coded language like Gingrich calling Barack Obama “the food-stamp president.”

The Right also has worked diligently to create false narratives to convince many Americans that their hatred of a strong federal government links them to the Founders. Many Tea Partiers have bought into the historical lie that the Founders wrote the Constitution to limit the power of the federal government and to promote “states’ rights” – the near opposite of what the framers actually were doing.

Led by Virginians Gen. George Washington and James Madison, the Constitutional Convention in 1787 threw out the Articles of Confederation, which had made the states supreme and the federal government a supplicant.

The Constitution reversed that situation, eliminating state “independence” and bestowing national sovereignty onto the federal Republic representing “we the people of the United States.” Contrary to the Tea Party’s false narrative, the Constitution represented the single biggest assertion of federal power in U.S. history.

When the Tea Partiers dress up in Revolutionary War costumes, they apparently don’t know that their notion of a weak central government and state “sovereignty” was anathema to the key framers of the Constitution, especially to Washington who had watched his soldiers suffer under the ineffectual Articles of Confederation.

And, when the Tea Partiers wave their “Don’t Tread on Me” flags of a coiled snake, they don’t seem to know that the warning was directed at the British Empire and that the banner aimed at fellow Americans was Benjamin Franklin’s image of a snake severed into various pieces representing the colonies/states with the admonishment “Join, or Die.”

Nevertheless, false narratives and false arguments can be as effective as real ones to a thoroughly misinformed population. Thus, many middle- and working-class Americans still cheer when Newt Gingrich references Ronald Reagan and his “supply-side” economics.

But the failure of Reagan’s economic strategy should be obvious to anyone who is not fully deluded by right-wing propaganda. Not only has the national debt skyrocketed over the past three decades, but whatever economic benefits that have been produced have gone overwhelmingly to the wealthy – while the nation as a whole has suffered.
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Are Republicans opportunistic liars, or just stupid?

Post by _Kevin Graham »

From the Economic Policy Institute: http://www.epi.org/blog/supply-side-abject-failure/

The president aptly characterized conservative economic policy as a two-pronged approach of cutting regulations and cutting taxes for the wealthy. (Note conservatives’ glaring lack of enthusiasm for refundable tax cuts or even an across-the-board payroll tax cut – tax cuts that would be pretty broad-based.) This is, of course, exactly the economic nostrum being preached by the GOP presidential field and Republican leadership on Capitol Hill. See, for instance, how the tax plans of presidential candidate Rick Perry or House Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan (R-Wisc.) belie any concern about income inequality, or how regulatory uncertainty is used as a phony explanation for the jobs crisis.

This supply-side snake oil is peddled on the premise that when the wealthy do well, income gains trickle down to the middle class and everyone benefits from a growing economy. But that hasn’t happened—real median income has sharply decoupled from productivity gains in recent decades (particularly since 2000) and income gains have been incredibly concentrated at the top of the earnings distribution. The president made the following salient point on the supply-side experiment:

“Now, it’s a simple theory… And that theory fits well on a bumper sticker. But here’s the problem: It doesn’t work. It has never worked. It didn’t work when it was tried in the decade before the Great Depression. It’s not what led to the incredible post-war booms of the ‘50s and ‘60s. And it didn’t work when we tried it during the last decade. I mean, understand, it’s not as if we haven’t tried this theory.” (Emphasis added.)


The record of the Bush-era tax cuts, also invoked by the president, indeed speaks volumes: “Remember in those years, in 2001 and 2003, Congress passed two of the most expensive tax cuts for the wealthy in history. And what did it get us? The slowest job growth in half a century.” That and the slowest economic growth, non-residential fixed investment growth, compensation growth, and wage and salary growth. Imagine if we had instead used the $2.6 trillion these tax cuts added to the public debt over 2001-2010 to undertake investments in areas like education, infrastructure, and scientific research—investments that would have produced much better job-growth and that have actually demonstrated high economic returns.


President Obama's speech in Kansas likely resonated with middle-class Americans.

Since the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts didn’t generate much in the way of jobs or incomes, they failed (by miles – or should we say trillions of dollars) to fulfill the mendacious claim often made by conservatives that tax cuts pay for themselves. (Note that this assertion continues to surface despite being flatly rejected by the Bush administration’s own economists.)

Based on this abject policy failure and the clear dysfunction of a tax code that allows a quarter of millionaires to pay lower effective tax rates than middle class families, President Obama made the case for tax reform – including allowing the top individual income tax rate to revert from 35 percent to the 39.6 percent rate implemented by President Clinton (which would still be well below tax rates for most of the post-World War II era).

Since most Republicans will clearly scream about the onerousness of this proposal, it’s worth noting that the optimal taxation literature calls for a steeper schedule of marginal tax rates and a considerably higher top rate than 39.6 percent. In their recent paper on the case for progressive taxation, economists Peter Diamond and Emmanuel Saez peg the optimal top income tax rate at 73 percent, up from 42.5 percent today (taking into account Medicare payroll taxes and average state income and sales taxes). This would imply a top federal marginal income tax rate of 65.5 percent—more than 25 percentage points higher than that proposed by the president. The current top tax rate is “is optimal only if the marginal consumption of very high income earners is highly valued,” note Diamond and Saez.

Of course, the value that policymakers put on the happiness of the very rich is exactly what stands behind the failure to enact job creation measures that would be financed by a surtax on millionaires and the repeated collapse of long-term deficit reduction negotiations because of conservative intransigence over raising more revenue from upper-income households.

I applaud the president for making the case for the progressive alternative against regressive tax cuts as the lodestar of economic policy. America’s low- and moderate income families should, too. As a nation, we cannot afford to double down on the failed, plutocratic pipe dream that is trickle down economics. Another round of tax cuts for the highest-income households will not restore full employment but will exacerbate widening income inequality, blow a bigger hole in the budget deficit, and defund needed public investments and economic security programs. Any policymaker genuinely concerned with the fate of the middle class, inequality and immobility, or the budget deficit, should be focused on rolling back the last round of inequitable and ineffective tax cuts rather than digging us deeper and deeper into a new Gilded Age.
_Droopy
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Re: Are Republicans opportunistic liars, or just stupid?

Post by _Droopy »

That is an ad hoc excuse you guys came up with to divert attention away from the fact that your pet theory has been shattered.


No, actually anyone with the barest speck of economic literacy and who does some serious reading now and then, understands current conditions:

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/201 ... iring.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/sageworks/2 ... ut-hiring/

http://articles.businessinsider.com/201 ... l-business

http://reason.com/blog/2012/07/02/linge ... ears-bette

http://www.murrayresources.com/if-the-e ... es-hiring/

Its simply basic political economy - another subject upon which your credibility is zero.
You have for years claimed that the best formula to guarantee increased employment is to cut their taxes further. Well taxes are ridiculously low, and corporations aren't doing what you said they'd do.


Actually, if one wishes to do some serious critical thinking and do a little serious reading, one finds that numerous layers of heavy taxation on the same dollars earned; the corporate income tax (among the highest in the world), dividend and capital gains tax (both of which are quite high and both of which are a direct tax on investment and entrepreneurial risk), personal income tax, the estate tax, a massive governmental theft of substantial quantities of earned income that restricts the passing on of productive business entities and financial wealth to heirs, the AMT, and a vast plethora of federal and state taxes on business and personal income, either directly or indirectly through countless products used and consumed, are consuming near 40% of national wealth. Federal taxation alone is now consuming some 16.3% of GDP, and is set to rise 30%, according to the CBO, over the next two years.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/cbo-tax ... xt-2-years

So instead of accepting the empirical data proving your Right Wing theory is bogus,


You have no "empirical data." All you have is chicken fried psuedostatistics manipulated to create self interested propaganda. Propaganda, Kevin, is not empirical data. You have no conception of what you're talking about regarding taxation, nor political economy, nor the incentives and motives that govern economic action, nor what's going on in America in the business world. All you have is your tin foil hat Romper Room Marxism, your troglodyte ignorance, and your monolithic leftist superstitions.

you have to shuffle your argument around and rely on this nonsense about how corporations are too afraid and uncertain about what government is going to do. What utter horse****. You have nothing to back up this claim. Nothing.


Except...empirical evidence. The statistics are already out there, as I've shown above, and that's precisely what large numbers of small and medium sized business owners (the backbone of the economy) are saying when asked. It also makes perfect praxeological sense - human action; rational, self interested economic calculation which looks to the future and attempts to anticipate as best it can future economic conditions and environments, is scared to high hell by our neo-marxist, post-American "president" and his fixation on the destruction and/or annexation of the private sector through taxation, regulation, and bureaucratic fiat (EPA, etc.)

Now you are going back to your state of ignorance on what does and doesn't propel an increase in employment. Krose and I have explained it to you as if you were a seventh grader but it still seems we're over shooting you.


You and Krose know no more about how free markets work and how the laws of economics function than Godzilla knows about staying off the grass. Please...stop the comedy...you're killing me.

Even if what you say about Obamacare is true - and it most certainly isn't- any fear about it is the result of Right Wing propaganda and baseless assumptions, not empirical data.


No, its about the long and well documented collapse of both the quality and availability of care that is the inevitable result of the nationalization, and hence rationing of scarce resources in an economically non-growing and non-economically self sufficient healthcare system. We already know, and have long known, from both the Canadian and British examples, as well as some others (including what happens when not only medicine but an entire economy is socialized - Cuba) what to expect.

Besides, low taxes and increased employment is something we saw long before Obama was elected. Try again.


Yes, particularly under Reagan, Bush 42, Clinton's second term under a economically at least semi-literate Republican Congress, and Bush's second term. The economic collapse, precipitated in the Democratic party/ACORN/"affordable housing" policy destroyed housing mortgage markets, and spreading throughout the economy as toxic mortgage backed securities, was at least 30 years in the making, and a 100% Democrat/leftist debacle that they, as well as George Bush and everyone else not stumbling around in a crack house or watching CNN, knew was coming.

If, however, taxes have gone up to the point that your bottom line -your ability to maintain what you already have at a profit that allows you to continue operations and pay your professors and staff what the market will bear (which you must do to attract and keep the best talent available), you are going to have to make cuts to your operations. Where? That's right, the new professors and new classes.

No dip****, that isn't what happens, as explained to you by Krose. Why are you even talking about this stuff as if you have any real life experience with it? You're pretending to be an expert on this issue because you read mises articles all day.



Notice that Kevin flames and calls me names here, but makes no argument. He thinks his skills as a four-letter polemicist will hid his lack of intellectual substance. Well, in this place, he does have an audience for this kind of thing.

It makes perfect sense if you understand economics.


A subject which, like most others upon which you opine, you clearly have no substantive educational background at all. Rule of thumb: Graham is a textbook, cookie cutter tool leftist. Whatever he says about you, or claims about your intellect or education, is, in all likelihood what the actual truth is about him. He's a walking, living projection machine.

Unfortunately, you don't. Your understanding of economics comes from the boilerplate serving you constantly feed yourself from the outdated and well discredited Hayek influenced Think Tank you so adore.


This brands you publicly as nothing more than the uncouth, philistine, anti-intellectual demagogic simpleton you've always been known to be. keep talking, and increase the level of certitude here ever more.

In your apocalyptical scenario where my taxes were 95% of my income, which is nothing Obama has ever entertained mind you, the first things to go would be those things listed on my personal expenditures. It certainly won't have any effect on business expenditures since my business is a source of income in and of itself.


Uh...yeah, we assume that your business is a source of income. Most are, Kevin. Now, what do you mean by "personal expenditures?" What is the source of income for your personal expenditures? Is it different from your business income? Is it derived from the same income? How would rising taxes on your business, and hence the ability of your business to expend funds in paying staff and maintaining infrastructure, not influence and determine the size, scope, and economic viability of that business? How, pray tell me, could rising taxes on your business income not influence business expenditure, since the same money taxed as gross profit is a portion of the same money expended in wages, benefits, supplies, and maintenance?[/i]

You can't pay wages and salaries, or buy a roll of toilet paper, with gross profits. You're net profit - after tax profit - is all you have to run your entire business and keep part of as personal income. Come no, Kevin. Focus...stay with me. There's only x dollars in your business at any time. y of it belongs preemptively to the state. The remainder -net profit - must be allocated to the business and as your personal income. Now, how do your incentives change, and how does your allocation of resources change, as taxes rise to higher, and higher, and higher levels?

Like krose said, why in the world would I start firing teachers who were making me money?


Because, Ronald, at some point, the rate of taxation would make continuing that business at its present size, scope, and functioning economically unviable.

An organ grinder monkey, but one intellectually unencumbered by leftist ideology and moral messianism, could understand this Kevin. You're utterly delusional and at some level, unless you're completely and wholly insane at this point, you must know you are. You're conning yourself, you're conning me, and, like Korihor before you, you've prated on so long in this manner that you've come to actually believe your own self serving fantasies.

If my tax rate is 1% or 99%, it doesn't change the fact that my employers are a source of income.


Yup, at a 99% tax rate on my gross receipts, my employees are still making me money. There is no possible argument against that, I admit. Unfortunately, at a 99% rate of taxation (or any given rate), 99% of the money your employees are making you will be confiscated. Therefore, in actual point of fact, they are not making you money at all: they are making money for the state. You get to keep 1%. At 1% your argument still holds, however. You're employees are making you money. Indeed, according to this logic, at a 100% marginal rate, your employees are making you money. You will just never get any of it.

In the real world, of course, whether or not your business is viable is completely dependent upon the costs of doing business and your ability to charge more for your services than it costs your to provide them - profit. Enter taxes. Long before taxes ever reached 90%, your business would be gone. When the cost of doing business is greater than your profit margin, you are out of business. You are "in the red."

That is what too high tax rates do to business.

Rather obviously.

You seem to think employees are some act of charity that employers engage in just for the heck of it and so when their taxes increase, they can somehow increase their profits by firing them. That's just idiotic.


Payroll is the single largest expenditure any business has to meet as to its overall cost of doing business before it sees a net profit. I grow weary of your Pleistocene attempts at sophistry.

This is such a bass ackwards view of the economy it is no wonder you've never been a successful capitalist. So according to Loran Blood, it doesn't matter whether or not consumers have money to spend. What matters is that new products get produced. In your view, by producing new goods and services, suddenly, miraculously, consumers will find money appearing in their bank accounts so they can purchase them.


You're so bloody dense and delusional at this point that rational argument is impossible. That's not what I've argued at all. But normally, I realize, you don't really read your opponents arguments at any depth. You scan them for polemical ammunition.

Enough.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: Are Republicans opportunistic liars, or just stupid?

Post by _Droopy »

EAllusion wrote:
Droopy wrote:I'm not going to bother trying to educate yet another economic illiterate in here, Delusion. Please don't bother with the pose.

The odds that I know more about Austrian economics than you is probably above 99%. Recall that I'm well-read in libertarian circles and held office in the local LP where I had to routinely interact with libertarians of all stripes, including your goldbug, Von Mises types.

Though, in fairness, one wouldn't need to know much of anything about it to be economically educated. It's not like the Austrians are part of any standard degree. But don't let writing for your audience get in the way of awkward attempts to seem learned that come off as anything but.


I must point out again that the above is illustrative of just why Daniel Peterson and others simply gave up attempting discourse with you a number of years ago.

You're quite obviously not anything approaching as smart as you think yourself to be. You have a much more serious problem than that, however, in that you're quite clearly not aware of this state of affairs.

Which makes you, at all events, an insufferable bore, an admittedly unhappy attribute to overlay upon the high brow of an intellectual poseur.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: Are Republicans opportunistic liars, or just stupid?

Post by _Droopy »

There is no regulatory or tax burden.


This is now part of my siggy. The Apollo moon landing was also done on an interior Hollywood studio set, I'm told.

Can the deterioration continue even further, after this milestone?

I fear to answer that question.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Are Republicans opportunistic liars, or just stupid?

Post by _Kevin Graham »

No, actually anyone with the barest speck of economic literacy and who does some serious reading now and then, understands current conditions:


And as expected, you provide a list of Right Wing blog entries from different people who simply regurgitate the same claims, but provide no evidence to back it up. This is their phony explanation that is designed to take attention away from the fact that their economic theories have been shattered. Always blame it on something else, preferably government regulations. When you cannot produce examples of regulations that have hindered job growth, you refer to this mysterious "fear" among business owners. How pathetic.

I on the other hand, can provide sound analysis refuting such fear mongering, from Economists in the know. Fair warning. What you are about to read (which you probably wont) is hazardous to your ignorance based assumptions.

http://www.epi.org/publication/regulato ... planation/

Regulatory uncertainty
A phony explanation for our jobs problem

By Lawrence Mishel | September 27, 2011

Republican politicians and business groups keep telling us that business investment and hiring is being held back by uncertainty over future regulations and taxation. For instance, Maine Senator Susan Collins said in introducing her bill to put a moratorium on all new regulations:

“Businesses, our nation’s job creators and the engine of any lasting economic growth, have been saying for some time that the lack of jobs is largely due to a climate of uncertainty, most notably the uncertainty and cost created by new Federal regulations.”

Her view has been repeated by others – like House Majority Leader Eric Cantor and the Chamber of Commerce. This story is also being told by some of the dissenters on the Federal Reserve Board’s Federal Open Market Committee, as Mike Konczal recently reported. Nobel Laureate Robert Lucas just made this argument in a Wall Street Journal interview, but he at least had the decency to note, “I have plenty of suspicions but little evidence.”

In a recently released paper, I present evidence that if you examine what employers are actually doing in terms of hiring and investment, this story about regulatory (or tax) uncertainty driving current job trends does not hold up. Private sector job growth has been weak in each of the last three recoveries and the current recovery’s private job growth matches up with the early 1990s recovery and is far better than that of the 2001 recovery. Investment in equipment and software has been stronger in this recovery than in the prior two recoveries. Last, weekly work hours are still substantially below those prior to the recession: uncertainty about future regulations cannot explain why employers do not increase work hours of currently employed workers to meet current demand for goods and services. A reasonable explanation for this work hours puzzle is that those sales opportunities do not actually exist, i.e., demand is lacking.

If you also examine what employers and their economists are saying in private surveys, you find that what businesses actually identify as their challenges does not fit this story either. In other words, what the heavily politicized trade associations in Washington (like the Chamber) are saying does not correspond to the real challenges facing both large and small businesses.

The National Federation of Independent Business (NFIB), which describes itself as “the leading small business association representing small and independent businesses,” does a regular survey of small businesses. One question that has been asked since 1973 is, “What is the single most important problem your business faces?” The answer choices are inflation, taxes, government regulation, poor sales, quality of labor, interest costs, health insurance costs, the cost of labor, and other matters. Interestingly, the single largest response is “poor sales,” the choice of 30 percent of respondents since President Obama was sworn in (averaging the 10 quarters between early 2009 and Spring 2011). That seems to accord with slack demand as the key concern of small businesses.

However, I was on a radio panel discussion with an economist from the Heritage Foundation who acknowledged this fact, but then highlighted that taxes and regulation were the next highest concerns identified in the NFIB surveys—evidence, he claimed, that tax and regulatory uncertainty were also preeminent. And, he correctly cited the data. In the Obama years, some 13.9 percent of small businesses identified government regulation and another 20.8 percent identified taxes as their primary problem, the leading answers after “poor sales.” I was fortunate enough to obtain the entire historical series (back to the fourth quarter of 1973) on this question from the NFIB so I could put this in historical perspective, constructing the averages for each presidential term as shown in the figure below:

(Go to link above for chart)

It turns out that small businesses have always complained about regulation and taxes and not especially so under Obama. For instance, the share concerned about regulation under Obama (13.9 percent) is not substantially higher than under George W. Bush (9.9 percent and 11.0 percent) or Ronald Reagan’s second term (12.8 percent). There is also less concern about regulation under Obama than under Bill Clinton or George H.W. Bush. Recall also that there was rapid employment growth in the second Clinton term, so high concerns about regulation (which rose steadily from Reagan’s first term to their highest level in Clinton’s first term) are not necessarily associated with poor employment growth.

There’s a similar story on taxes. Sure, there are 20.8 percent of respondents on average in the Obama years who see taxes as the primary problem facing their business. Yet, that intensity of concern about taxes is not all that different than under George W. Bush and is less than the presidential terms from the first Reagan term through Clinton’s second term. It is hard to find a recent spike in concern about regulations or taxes that supports a story of escalating uncertainty or fears of regulations holding back the economy.

============================

Your problem Droopy, is that you're out of your depth here. You're not going to be able to regurgitate Mises.org articles while copying everything from their rhetoric to their jargon, and then claim to be educated on economic matters. You're an uneducated hack striving to gain relevance in a realm where no one really cares what you have to say. That's sad.

Supply-side economics has been proven to be a catastrophic failure of epic proportions. I mean you really have to have your head stuck firmly in the sand not to see this. All recent economic history proves this to be the case. And I'm glad you cite me in your siggy. Your posts could use a dash of truth added to them.

The fact is empirical data proves that businesses do not blame regulations for unemployment today any more than they did under Reagan. So to use this as an excuse is stupid. The fact is consumer spending (demand) is down and so employment is down. Period. It is really that simple. But you refuse to accept it because you have this supply-side dogma branded into your psyche, you just hate to consider the possibility that it was all BS. Well, it was so you should just accept it.
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