Kids who die before age 8 DON'T automatically go to the C.K.

[_jo1952]

Because people are blithely assuming that fetuses are saved in the highest degree of the CK and become celestial beings without considering what the means in Mormon doctrine. Even the topic of the original thread 'Why Men will have to share their wives in the CK' makes no sense when you think about it. How are fetuses married when they get to the CK? You have to be sealed and married in the temple. That means you have to be endowed and baptized. How is that accomplished? We don't baptize, endow or marry fetuses. Maybe they aren't married, but then they can't go to the highest degree of the CK. But if they are saved in the CK, then that can't be. Like I said, it is completely ridiculous.

Hello Tobin!

I predict that I am going to be stoned. However, I am going to agree with your stand on this issue; but not only for the reason that you expressed (though I believe that some of the children who died before the age of accountability WILL be raised during the Millenium as you HAVE shared....I'm just not sure that this will be the case for all of those who died before the age of accountability).

The first thing I want to present is a real eye-opener which I didn't catch until recently. I think you have probably already had the chance to read about this in some of my posts on the Celestial forum. At the risk of duplicating information you have already seen from me, I think the other readers on this thread need to see it.

D&C 130:10-11

10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

Readers, did you catch that?

Each individual who receives the white stone (which becomes a Urim and Thummim to the receiver) will receive knowledge of things pertaining to A HIGHER ORDER OF KINGDOMS. And WHO gets one of these white stones? Each of those who enter the CELESTIAL KINGDOM!!

But wait....isn't the Celestial Kingdom the highest Kingdom in Heaven? Yes, I realize we have been taught about the Telestial, the Terrestrial, and multi-leveled Celestial Kingdoms (I also believe there are multiple levels in the Telestial and the Terrestrial Kingdoms as well---even though they are not talked about, are they? If I am wrong, please let me know.) Yet God is revealing a mystery to Joseph Smith here! There is A HIGHER ORDER OF KINGDOMS (than the Celestial Kingdom)!!!!

After you have had a chance to get your head around this, I will continue to post more insight I have received from the Holy Spirit which I believe can help address the issue which Tobin has raised.

Blessings,

jo

[_gramps]

jo1952 wrote:

I predict that I am going to be stoned.

I predict you already are. ;)

After you have had a chance to get your head around this, I will continue to post more insight I have received from the Holy Spirit which I believe can help address the issue which Tobin has raised.

Why do images from a certain Jack Nicholson movie come to mind when I read this?

[_Tobin]

Because people are blithely assuming that fetuses are saved in the highest degree of the CK and become celestial beings without considering what the means in Mormon doctrine. Even the topic of the original thread 'Why Men will have to share their wives in the CK' makes no sense when you think about it. How are fetuses married when they get to the CK? You have to be sealed and married in the temple. That means you have to be endowed and baptized. How is that accomplished? We don't baptize, endow or marry fetuses. Maybe they aren't married, but then they can't go to the highest degree of the CK. But if they are saved in the CK, then that can't be. Like I said, it is completely ridiculous.

Hello Tobin!

I predict that I am going to be stoned. However, I am going to agree with your stand on this issue; but not only for the reason that you expressed (though I believe that some of the children who died before the age of accountability WILL be raised during the Millenium as you HAVE shared....I'm just not sure that this will be the case for all of those who died before the age of accountability).

The first thing I want to present is a real eye-opener which I didn't catch until recently. I think you have probably already had the chance to read about this in some of my posts on the Celestial forum. At the risk of duplicating information you have already seen from me, I think the other readers on this thread need to see it.

D&C 130:10-11

10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

Readers, did you catch that?

Each individual who receives the white stone (which becomes a Urim and Thummim to the receiver) will receive knowledge of things pertaining to A HIGHER ORDER OF KINGDOMS. And WHO gets one of these white stones? Each of those who enter the CELESTIAL KINGDOM!!

But wait....isn't the Celestial Kingdom the highest Kingdom in Heaven? Yes, I realize we have been taught about the Telestial, the Terrestrial, and multi-leveled Celestial Kingdoms (I also believe there are multiple levels in the Telestial and the Terrestrial Kingdoms as well---even though they are not talked about, are they? If I am wrong, please let me know.) Yet God is revealing a mystery to Joseph Smith here! There is A HIGHER ORDER OF KINGDOMS (than the Celestial Kingdom)!!!!

After you have had a chance to get your head around this, I will continue to post more insight I have received from the Holy Spirit which I believe can help address the issue which Tobin has raised.

Blessings,

jo

Oh, I'm well aware of that verse. Thank you for sharing it jo and I'm glad you understand what I'm talking about. Anyway, I agree with you and I believe everyone is at a different level when they are exalted. There are degrees of exaltation. That is the correct way to think about it.

[_jo1952]

I predict you already are. ;)

Can you believe it? I am 60 years old and have NEVER been stoned....not even before I joined the Church at the age of 22. How did I ever manage that.......

Why do images from a certain Jack Nicholson movie come to mind when I read this?

And the plot thickens.

Blessings,

jo

[_Tobin]

Because people are blithely assuming that fetuses are saved in the highest degree of the CK and become celestial beings without considering what the means in Mormon doctrine. Even the topic of the original thread 'Why Men will have to share their wives in the CK' makes no sense when you think about it. How are fetuses married when they get to the CK? You have to be sealed and married in the temple. That means you have to be endowed and baptized. How is that accomplished? We don't baptize, endow or marry fetuses. Maybe they aren't married, but then they can't go to the highest degree of the CK. But if they are saved in the CK, then that can't be. Like I said, it is completely ridiculous.

You're getting hung up on the fetuses issue. Forget fetuses. There is no LDS doctrine concerning what happens to unborn fetuses. There is doctrine about children who die before the age of accountability, and it is quite clear. Young children who die are saved and go to the Celestial Kingdom. That is what is taught in the scriptures and by lots of the prophets and apostles. Whether it makes sense or not is completely irrelevant. Whether it reflects absolute truth is irrelevant. All we're saying is that is what is taught by the Mormon church. Call it false doctrine all you want, but if you continue to assert that it's not what the church teaches I'll be forced to conclude you're a blatant liar.

Cylon. I'm well aware that it is taught in the LDS Church. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying it isn't correctly understood given the context of what we know about the temple and how one comes unto God and is exalted and becomes a Celestial Being.

[_gramps]

jo1952 wrote:

Can you believe it? I am 60 years old and have NEVER been stoned....not even before I joined the Church at the age of 22. How did I ever manage that.......

It is your belief in white stones I imagine. Perhaps such a belief takes away all desire for earthly inebriants?

[_DonBradley]

Tobin,

If I'm understanding right, you're saying that despite any statements to the effect that children who die are automatically saved in the celestial kingdom, you see the basic logic of the plan of salvation as requiring that everyone--including children who die young--be tested and choose what degree of salvation they will attain. Yes? No?

There's a quote in Wilford Woodruff's journal where Brigham Young expresses his belief that infants who die as newborns probably did not have enough of a chance at mortality and their spirits are reborn in new mortal bodies. Why he would have confined this to children who died as newborns, I'm not sure. But the logic of his thought may be similar to yours.

Another possible argument in the same direction is that the plan required that people choose whether they would be saved. If every young child struck down by cholera, hunger, or infanticide automatically goes to the celestial kingdom without making any moral choices, it's difficult to see how the principle of agency is still determinative in their salvation.

In any case, while people are sometimes circumscribed in what they are to teach or publish, the church allows people to believe almost anything they want. So, I can't for the life of me see why you aren't welcome to your own interpretation.

Don

[_jo1952]

Cylon. I'm well aware that it is taught in the LDS Church. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying it isn't correctly understood given the context of what we know about the temple and how one comes unto God and is exalted and becomes a Celestial Being.

Hi Tobin!

Glad to see that you are still up - though, I suppose depending upon where you live.......

Here is more of what I believe. Just like Jesus and the ancient Apostles, Joseph Smith was not allowed to reveal to us everything that had been revealed to him. In fact, I think it is for this very reason that there is such a hot debate going on about your stance. I think that most people are speaking a part of all Truth. However, since they have not had ALL Truth revealed to them yet, they are only commenting on that portion of Truth which the Church has taught them.

Now, I don't want to make any enemies here because I really and truly and earnestly love everyone. However, I think that members of the LDS Church are just as likely to not see what their beliefs "look like" as members of any other church are. This is something which worried both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. They were afraid that members of the Church would hold Leaders of the Church in such high regard, place them on a pedestal of impossible expectations, and not gain a personal testimony received from the Holy Spirit about whatever they were being taught. This would be problematic for at least a couple of reasons. One is that the members would become sheeple rather than individual thinkers. Another is that if they should believe that a Leader had made a great error, they would lose their testimony; even though they are the ones who placed our Leader on a pedestal and expected them to be perfect.

As such, they are blind to what can obviously be construed as inconsistency or confliction in Church doctrine. Until we have been led to ALL Truth, we cannot help but be blind to whatever has not yet been revealed to us. That is a "duh" statement; but I don't think a lot people give it much consideration.

Anyway, what I have seen on this thread is a lot of posturing by both loyal LDS and not-so loyal LDS who are pointing to what Prophets and other Church Leaders have said, without giving any real consideration to what YOU have said. Yet the conflict arises from both sides missing those parts of Truth which would/could help solve the conflict.

God is NOT a respecter of persons! He is NOT going to make it easier for one spirit to achieve Exaltation than it is for another spirit. In order to become like Christ, we must not only become perfect like He is in doing Father's will, we need to suffer our own tribulations and learn from them. Though Jesus did not make any mistakes in His incarnation in the flesh on this earth, I think He probably DID make mistakes in other probations in order for Him to progress to the point that He COULD perfectly do the will of Father. We have already been taught that Christ has created other worlds; and we know He came to this earth to become our Savior. There is a pattern here. We also have been taught that everything that exists in this physical Creation, first existed in the Spiritual Realm.

I believe that wherein people have said that the spirits of those who are given bodies that die before the age of accountability, or the body that suffers mental retardation and cannot make choices, have already proven themselves before they got here is also a partial Truth. What I question is WHEN and WHERE they proved themselves.

This may not be a popular subject; but Joseph Smith believed in multiple probations (i.e., reincarnation). So did some of our other early Leaders. Certainly our Savior has lived in more than one incarnation. So, if we are to become like Him, are we not also going to go through multiple incarnations? There are indications of belief in reincarnation in the Bible. Many early church fathers believed in it. The Jewish Kabbalah teaches it. In fact the Kabbalah also teaches there are seven heavens. Is this what was being revealed to us in D&C130:10-11??

Superficially, it appears to me that when a child dies before the age of accountability, who then is taken to the CK, has NOT had the opportunity to use their own free will to choose to accept Christ or to choose to believe in Father for that matter. Yet we know that God would not change the rules for some spirits and take away their free will. This goes against the Plan of Salvation itself.

Since we also know that God has a purpose for everything; and also, that whatever choices we DO make in exercising our free will, He will find a way to use those choices (whether they were good ones or evil ones) to promote His purposes.

So let's think about the issue which Tobin has raised, while at the same time taking into consideration even the possibility of reincarnation, and see what that "looks like". I believe it can remove the concerns of those who think Tobin is becoming an apostate; as well as help Tobin further his own speculations by providing answers to some very real problems which LDS doctrine suffers from through the perceptions of non-LDS, anti-LDS, and even former LDS people.

More later.....

Blessings,

jo

[_jo1952]

It is your belief in white stones I imagine. Perhaps such a belief takes away all desire for earthly inebriants?

Hi Gramps!

That's a tough one. I didn't catch onto the white stones until recently. So I don't even have an excuse for the rest of my life..... I did get drunk once.

jo

[_Tobin]

If I'm understanding right, you're saying that despite any statements to the effect that children who die are automatically saved in the celestial kingdom, you see the basic logic of the plan of salvation as requiring that everyone--including children who die young--be tested and choose what degree of salvation they will attain. Yes? No?

Children who die before they are accountable (and others who are not accountable) return to the CK as spirits and are saved (preserved). The importance of this doctrine is that they don't go to hell as was often taught in the past by other denominations, but instead return to their Heavenly Father. This is necessary for the plan of salvation. It has always been a common doctrine in Mormonism that those who do not have a chance to choose in this life will at some point be given all the same opportunities that we share. In fact, Mormons perform temple work for the dead to provide these opportunities. However, we do not do them for the unaccountable. It has also been taught by several prophets that those children that did not survive to be accountable and enjoy the bounties of life (and opportunities that we all share) will be given those opportunites during the Millenium.

What I reject is the notion that exaltation is automatic and devoid of choice. This is the idea promoted when it is suggested that children will be saved and exalted outside of the order that the rest of us follow. Instead, my view is they will be given the opportunity to be exalted, but they must choose to do so and follow the Lord. I believe it is a step too far to say anyone can be exaltted without choosing to do as the Lord asks and follow him. To be exalted as celestial beings and attain the highest degrees of glory in the CK requires a number of things. We can be at ease that children who die before they can do these things will be given the opportunity to partake in baptism, the endowment, sealing, marriage, resurrection, and so on.

There's a quote in Wilford Woodruff's journal where Brigham Young expresses his belief that infants who die as newborns probably did not have enough of a chance at mortality and their spirits are reborn in new mortal bodies. Why he would have confined this to children who died as newborns, I'm not sure. But the logic of his thought may be similar to yours.

It is very consistent with my view. These children must be given the same choices and opportunites that we have. This is why this was said. Otherwise, why would he suggest this if they were automatically saved and exalted?

Another possible argument in the same direction is that the plan required that people choose whether they would be saved. If every young child struck down by cholera, hunger, or infanticide automatically goes to the celestial kingdom without making any moral choices, it's difficult to see how the principle of agency is still determinative in their salvation.

Yes, I strongly disagree with the idea that anyone will get a free pass to the CK. We must choose to follow the Lord and do as he asks to attain that. This necessitates that we be tried and tested by the Lord.

In any case, while people are sometimes circumscribed in what they are to teach or publish, the church allows people to believe almost anything they want. So, I can't for the life of me see why you aren't welcome to your own interpretation.

Agreed. People are certainly free to believe whatever they want. I'm only promoting my view because I view the idea that anyone would get a free pass to exaltation as inherently unjust and not in keeping with the commandments and requirements that God places on the rest of us.