What are they thinking???

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_palerobber
_Emeritus
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Re: What are they thinking???

Post by _palerobber »

Nomomo wrote:Nonetheless, the two do go hand in hand wherever the percentage of the population that is Muslim is great.


yes, and wherever the percentage of the population that are circus performers is great, you'll find more serial killer clowns.

and yet people say the circus is just a harmless diversion.
_Nomomo
_Emeritus
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Re: What are they thinking???

Post by _Nomomo »

palerobber wrote:
Nomomo wrote:Nonetheless, the two do go hand in hand wherever the percentage of the population that is Muslim is great.


yes, and wherever the percentage of the population that are circus performers is great, you'll find more serial killer clowns.

and yet people say the circus is just a harmless diversion.

Speaking of clowns........
The Universe is stranger than we can imagine.
_Lucretia MacEvil
_Emeritus
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Re: What are they thinking???

Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

palerobber wrote:
Nomomo wrote:Nonetheless, the two do go hand in hand wherever the percentage of the population that is Muslim is great.


yes, and wherever the percentage of the population that are circus performers is great, you'll find more serial killer clowns.

and yet people say the circus is just a harmless diversion.


Okay, but I'm not sure that's really a very good comparison. Sounds something like BC would say in defense of Mormonism.

I'm all for not painting with too broad a brush, etc., and of course Moslems aren't all bad. It seems like you are trying to make them out to be all good, however. Welcome to the board, by the way. We don't know you yet. Would you like to enlarge a little on your views?
The person who is certain and who claims divine warrant for his certainty belongs now to the infancy of our species. Christopher Hitchens

Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. Frater
_mocnarf
_Emeritus
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Re: What are they thinking???

Post by _mocnarf »

Lucretia MacEvil wrote:
palerobber wrote:yes, and wherever the percentage of the population that are circus performers is great, you'll find more serial killer clowns.

and yet people say the circus is just a harmless diversion.


Okay, but I'm not sure that's really a very good comparison. Sounds something like BC would say in defense of Mormonism.

I'm all for not painting with too broad a brush, etc., and of course Moslems aren't all bad. It seems like you are trying to make them out to be all good, however. Welcome to the board, by the way. We don't know you yet. Would you like to enlarge a little on your views?


Your absolutely correct. The vast majority of Muslims are NOT radical, militant Muslims. But they will not speak out against the radical militants. Muslim people for the most part are not the problem. But their religious dogma is the problem. Islam is a religion of hate and demands believers to kill the Jew and the non-believer. Maybe not today but when the time is right. They must first gain strength in numbers. in my opinion.. if you live in a Muslim dominated country your days are numbered.

Now that the Muslim Brotherhood has taken control of Egypt, how long will it be before there will be no Christians living there? I am willing to bet that within 10 years the Christian population will have all but disappeared.
Aim at at nothing and you're sure to hit it.
_lulu
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Re: What are they thinking???

Post by _lulu »

mocnarf wrote:Your absolutely correct. The vast majority of Muslims are NOT radical, militant Muslims. But they will not speak out against the radical militants. Muslim people for the most part are not the problem. But their religious dogma is the problem. Islam is a religion of hate and demands believers to kill the Jew and the non-believer. Maybe not today but when the time is right. They must first gain strength in numbers. in my opinion.. if you live in a Muslim dominated country your days are numbered.

Now that the Muslim Brotherhood has taken control of Egypt, how long will it be before there will be no Christians living there? I am willing to bet that within 10 years the Christian population will have all but disappeared.

cognite intrare

oh, wait, that was St. Augustine, my bad.
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
_DrW
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Re: What are they thinking???

Post by _DrW »

mocnarf wrote: in my opinion.. if you live in a Muslim dominated country your days are numbered.

Imagine my disappointment in waking up this morning in a 95+ percent Muslim country, going for a swim in the ocean, having a nice breakfast among the palm trees on the beach, and then reading that my days here were numbered.

I have lived and worked in the Gulf region on and off for more than 20 years. For a few years of that time, my family, including my younger children (teenagers at the time) lived here with me. While the cultural differences can be frustrating (getting real work done just takes longer here), my family and I have always been treated with respect here. We have always been well accepted, felt safe, and have always been fairly compensated for what we have contributed.

While living here I have traveled by vehicle (self driven and with local drivers) all over the place, including some very remote areas. I have (to my knowledge) never met anyone who would wish me harm. In fact, the attitude on the ground here toward America and Americans here has improved greatly with the election of Barack Obama as President. George Bush was not popular here, and expatriate Americans could sense the animosity.

Is Islamic fundamentalism a problem in the world?

Absolutely.

Are moderate Muslims reticent to speak out against it?

Not as reticent as they were 10 years ago.

For example, there are now very graphic ads here on TV, in prime time, depicting the regret of a handsome young man who was involved with terrorism, stood by while his friend was bound and executed, and returned home shamed and with blood on his hands. The shamed part is important here. The adds are well done in Saudi Arabia and run on stations all over the Gulf.

Due in no small part to the Arab Spring, many Arab leaders in the Gulf are taking a more enlightened approach to governance. This change has been brought about (or at least enabled) by access to communications including cell phones, the internet, and at my last count, something on the order of 1,000 channels of TV on at least seven Arab-owned satellite systems. (Most villas here have between 4 and 6 satellite dishes on their flat roofs. We have at least a dozen English language channels here including CNN. In fact, there are two channels here that carry nothing but American and British (mostly first run) movies, in English with Arabic subtitles, 24/7.)

When it comes to changes in governance, keep in mind that we are talking largely about Islamic Kingdoms, Sultanates and Emirates, so religion and politics are pretty much one in the same. There are still firebrand fundamentalists here, no doubt. They have their mosques and are given plenty of time on TV and allowed to have their say. But on a practical day to day basis, they are less and less able to offer what Arabs most desire, and that is respect in the world.

As the Arab countries develop. As education improves and as the economic benefits of development are distributed more equitably, there is less room for the fundamentalists here.

So while I agree with you that the Islamic religion is a problem for civilization (as are theistic religions, in general) I do not agree that one can link the magnitude of the problem to population numbers as you have attempted to do.

in my opinion, posts such as your OP are a part of the problem, not a part of the solution.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Drifting
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Re: What are they thinking???

Post by _Drifting »

What is the reason for Islam being able to convert and retain membership numbers massively in excess of Gods one true Church?

In other words, why are the supposed bad guys winning?

What doctrine and belief does Islam have that Mormons don't agree with?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
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"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
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_DrW
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Re: What are they thinking???

Post by _DrW »

Drifting wrote:What is the reason for Islam being able to convert and retain membership numbers massively in excess of Gods one true Church?

In other words, why are the supposed bad guys winning?

What doctrine and belief does Islam have that Mormons don't agree with?

Good point.

Aside from the names of their respective "revealed" Holy Scriptures, the similarities between fundamental (unfounded) beliefs and resulting behaviors in Mormonism and Islam are far greater than most might appreciate.

I posted about these similarities a few years ago under similar circumstances. Will see if I can find the legacy post and do an update.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_ludwigm
_Emeritus
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Re: What are they thinking???

Post by _ludwigm »

Latter-day Saint Interest in Muhammad

One of the noteworthy examples of the Latter-day Saint commitment to treasure up true principles is the admiration that Church leaders have expressed over the years for the spiritual contributions of Muhammad.

As early as 1855, at a time when Christian literature generally ridiculed Muhammad, Elders George A. Smith (1817–75) and Parley P. Pratt (1807–57) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles delivered lengthy sermons demonstrating an accurate and balanced understanding of Islamic history and speaking highly of Muhammad’s leadership. Elder Smith observed that Muhammad was “descended from Abraham and was no doubt raised up by God on purpose” to preach against idolatry. He sympathized with the plight of Muslims, who, like Latter-day Saints, found it difficult “to get an honest history” written about them. Speaking next, Elder Pratt went on to express his admiration for Muhammad’s teachings, asserting that “upon the whole, … [Muslims] have better morals and better institutions than many Christian nations.”

Latter-day Saint appreciation of Muhammad’s role in history can also be found in the 1978 First Presidency statement regarding God’s love for all mankind. This declaration specifically mentions Muhammad as one of “the great religious leaders of the world” who received “a portion of God’s light” and affirms that “moral truths were given to [these leaders] by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.”
The most helpful approach is to recognize the truths and values we share with our Muslim brothers and sisters, even while politely acknowledging that theological differences exist.
Muslim use of Church canning facilities to produce halal (ritually clean) food products...
Pictures:
Elder Neal A. Maxwell of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (far right) and Brigham Young University professor Daniel C. Peterson (far left) with Muslim dignitaries at a reception held on 10 February 2000 at the United Nations building in New York City to honor the Islamic Translation Series.


Quotes from Liahona June 2002 - A Latter-day Saint Perspective on Muhammad
From official publications of the church, citing GAs.

bcspace will explain if this is doctrine or not...
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_Samantabhadra
_Emeritus
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Re: What are they thinking???

Post by _Samantabhadra »

Probably the single biggest difference between Islam and LDS is that Muslims worship the One True God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, while Mormons worship Hermes-Thoth.

And thanks for your post, DrW.
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