What should I address about the Book of Abraham, Paul?

[_Nightlion]

I figured this was a cry for help I just now noticed somehow, in the telestial world.

....And what do you know about the process and the things Joseph Smith declared while he was preparing the Facsimiles for the printing press? Are you aware that Joseph Smith was betting everything on it? Yes, all of his inspiration and supposed authority between him and God in restoring the church – via holy priesthood, keys, Presidency, inspiration of Holy Ghost – all of these things are hinged upon the Explanations of the Facsimiles and the story of Abraham as printed in the Times & Seasons. The prophet and the brethren made that perfectly clear (in many sources you know not of).....

[_Shulem]

Nightlion, when you choose to keep Joseph Smith as your heaven sent prophet, you are also married to his Explanations of the Facsimile No. 3. I know you may not like that but it's nonetheless the case. You'll have to deal with it in whatever manner you deem best. You have a mountain in front of you which stares in your face and nothing that mountain can do or say will ever make the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 or the chapters of Abraham true.

I'm sorry, but those are the facts.

Paul O

[_Nightlion]

Nightlion, when you choose to keep Joseph Smith as your heaven sent prophet, you are also married to his Explanations of the Facsimile No. 3. I know you may not like that but it's nonetheless the case. You'll have to deal with it in whatever manner you deem best. You have a mountain in front of you which stares in your face and nothing that mountain can do or say will ever make the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 or the chapters of Abraham true.

I'm sorry, but those are the facts.

Paul O

I fail to respect any connection between the facsimiles and the actual scripture of the Book of Abraham. Even the account of the alter Abraham was offered up on. The fact that there was an alter/table in the papyri is perhaps what got Joseph combing through it and trying to realize more than what was there. Joseph could only give scripture by revelation and not by actual translation. We all know this. And if the bedstead is the on Abraham was sacrificed on it would have been in Ur of the Chaldeans, so why a determinant that means Abraham in Egypt???

You know I have never studied the apologetics of The Book of Abraham. I could not care less what the unwashed and uncircumcised of heart think about it.

The scripture of the Book of Abraham is sound and expounds related scripture and opens up understanding to things nothing else even touches. It is important. The snit Joseph had against the Gentiles who failed to bring forth Zion and made a great failure of the Restoration is the best explanation for him giving them strong delusion that they believe a lie. Not just in the facsimiles but in allowing doctrines to evolve without him where the devil overcame the church and drove the gospel into the wilderness.

Polygamy and great big notions of eternal kingdom building was allowed so that the Gentiles sit the nest long enough for one man to come along who would get the gospel right and who would defend all scripture given of God with the power and Spirit of God. Not by way of learned application of learned learning that amounts to nothing.

A single stone to smite the image of apostasy upon the toes and begin the kingdom that shall stand forever Done. Might be of some interest if you have anything specific to challenge me with.

[_Shulem]

Might be of some interest if you have anything specific to challenge me with.

The only challenging going on around here is from you. YOU challenge Joseph Smith by belittling his Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 which he held in high regard, on par with the very chapters of the Book of Abraham. YOU, Nightlion, have challenged your founding prophet and told him you don't accept his revelations.

I'm just fine with that. You're an apostate too.

Welcome, friend!

Paul O

[_sock puppet]

I fail to respect any connection between the facsimiles and the actual scripture of the Book of Abraham. Even the account of the alter Abraham was offered up on. The fact that there was an alter/table in the papyri is perhaps what got Joseph combing through it and trying to realize more than what was there. Joseph could only give scripture by revelation and not by actual translation. We all know this.

Why didn't JSJr know this, then? He was not satisfied with the title, prophet, seer and revelator. His title also included translator.

Why couldn't god have revealed sacred textual passages to, say, Mormon, who wrote them in his native 'reformed Egyptian', and then JSJr have translated them into scripture in English? HOW do we all know this was not by actual translation?

What leads you, Nightlion, to know that JSJr did not give scripture by actual translation?

[_zeezrom]

The scripture of the Book of Abraham is sound and expounds related scripture and opens up understanding to things nothing else even touches. It is important.

Can you defend this?

[_Drifting]

The scripture of the Book of Abraham is sound and expounds related scripture and opens up understanding to things nothing else even touches. It is important.

Can you defend this?

Hmmm...let's see if I can help...

While critics of the Church often challenge the authenticity of the Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price, they attach more importance to it than Church members do themselves, a Latter-day Saint Egyptologist said Aug. 6 at the annual conference of the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research (FAIR).

Such critics lose sight of "the larger issue," said John Gee, an associate research professor of Egyptology at the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship at BYU.

"The book of Abraham is true," said Brother Gee, author of A Guide to the Joseph Smith Papyri, at the end of his presentation. "I think it can be defended. I think it should be defended. But it's not the be-all-and-end-all of either apologetics or research or the scriptures."

Brother Gee said that in many cases the argument about the Book of Abraham has become so complex that even some of the sharpest critics lose perspective and fail to be consistent in their contentions.

"We cannot afford to lose sight of the big picture," he said.

He offered a few rules for "apologists," a word that in this context means defenders:

First, it is not necessary to refute every statement by a critic. "The critic may be wrong about a point, but if it is not central to the argument, one can often let it slide."

Second, not every argument or point is worth defending. "Even widely held opinions do not need to be defended if they are mistaken," he said.

Third, truth is not well-served by a bad argument. "We apologists make no claims to perfection, either in ourselves or our arguments, so it is simply better to let go of bad arguments."

Fourth, though God knows everything, "we do not and cannot," he said.

"So if what is most important needs to be defended, what are some of the things that need to be defended?" he asked.

He suggested six: God exists; Jesus Christ is His Son; God talked and still talks with men through the power of the Holy Ghost; Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of the world; the Atonement is available to those who trust Jesus, turn from sin, make and keep sacred covenants, and follow the course throughout their lives; and the Book of Mormon is true, an authentic record of God's interactions with actual ancient people.

"Now, we may be called upon to defend smaller points than these, but if these six things are not true, there is no point in the rest," Brother Gee said.

"Now where is the Book of Abraham in this?" he asked. "It isn't. The Book of Abraham is not central to the restored gospel of Christ."

[_Nightlion]

Might be of some interest if you have anything specific to challenge me with.

The only challenging going on around here is from you. YOU challenge Joseph Smith by belittling his Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 which he held in high regard, on par with the very chapters of the Book of Abraham. YOU, Nightlion, have challenged your founding prophet and told him you don't accept his revelations.

I'm just fine with that. You're an apostate too.

Welcome, friend!

Paul O

No, Paul, I am not belittling his explanations I am offering another purpose he had in mind for all of it. I thought maybe you had a reference where Joseph says something specific about the facsimiles. It is truly brilliant of him to set up this folly to force people to fish or cut bait. the Gentiles refused the gospel. They invented their own and have twisted the entire Restoration around to suit their own purposes. Nobody is even taught the gospel in the LDS Church. they say gospel gospel, live the gospel, blah, blah, blah the gospel. Yet top to bottom there is no man who understands it and has done it to be found among the entire membership today. I defy them in the name of the Lord to show me one. How crappy is that?

The test today is to stand knowing that the Restoration is true and has virtue and that the love of God is to be found by receiving the principles of the gospel correctly. Or to run about as a chicken with its head cut off speaking evil of Joseph Smith. Only those who get the gospel right will be able to stand the test. Once you get the gospel right and realize that without Joseph Smith there would be no getting the gospel right, then hell and high water cannot separate you from him. Come what may. We might even see the LDS begin to marginalize Joseph Smith like they have Brigham Young.

My notions of what motivated Joseph Smith to play fast and loose with hieroglyphics is a working thesis like thinking perhaps he was attempting to read Adamic from them. I do not think Joseph Smith has accounted for how he learned Adamic words and phrases which he began to use three years before the papyri came to Kirtland. Why is that? I say when that happened is when and where he got the Book of Abraham and for some reason he was not willing to give an explanation and only used the papyri as an excuse. Curious I say.

Did he know our day so well that he purposefully set us up for this? He knew about The Apocalrock, and he sent the Mormons to camp out right here in front of it. Why? The Apocalrock is a condemnation of the LDS Church. He said before he died that he would have a reformation and that the church needs to be cleansed. He carried attitude about the faithlessness of the Mormons and the failure of Zion. He must have wanted to view his legacy when a real Zion might emerge from the roots of the Restoration. That would be right now.

[_Shulem]

No, Paul, I am not belittling his explanations I am offering another purpose he had in mind for all of it. I thought maybe you had a reference where Joseph says something specific about the facsimiles. It is truly brilliant of him to set up this folly to force people to fish or cut bait. the Gentiles refused the gospel. They invented their own and have twisted the entire Restoration around to suit their own purposes. Nobody is even taught the gospel in the LDS Church. they say gospel gospel, live the gospel, blah, blah, blah the gospel. Yet top to bottom there is no man who understands it and has done it to be found among the entire membership today. I defy them in the name of the Lord to show me one. How crappy is that?

The test today is to stand knowing that the Restoration is true and has virtue and that the love of God is to be found by receiving the principles of the gospel correctly. Or to run about as a chicken with its head cut off speaking evil of Joseph Smith. Only those who get the gospel right will be able to stand the test. Once you get the gospel right and realize that without Joseph Smith there would be no getting the gospel right, then hell and high water cannot separate you from him. Come what may. We might even see the LDS begin to marginalize Joseph Smith like they have Brigham Young.

My notions of what motivated Joseph Smith to play fast and loose with hieroglyphics is a working thesis like thinking perhaps he was attempting to read Adamic from them. I do not think Joseph Smith has accounted for how he learned Adamic words and phrases which he began to use three years before the papyri came to Kirtland. Why is that? I say when that happened is when and where he got the Book of Abraham and for some reason he was not willing to give an explanation and only used the papyri as an excuse. Curious I say.

Did he know our day so well that he purposefully set us up for this? He knew about The Apocalrock, and he sent the Mormons to camp out right here in front of it. Why? The Apocalrock is a condemnation of the LDS Church. He said before he died that he would have a reformation and that the church needs to be cleansed. He carried attitude about the faithlessness of the Mormons and the failure of Zion. He must have wanted to view his legacy when a real Zion might emerge from the roots of the Restoration. That would be right now.

Would you please cease from preaching at me, for jezzus sake?! The hell with Joe Smith and Jesus. The whole gospel and doctrine of blood atonement is gross stuff that religious kooks love to devour. You can have all that jezzus stuff and eat it too.

You don't know jack about Joseph Smith's makings of the Book of Abraham and I'll be damned before I start trying to educate you. Remain in your ignorance and have all the faith you want in your silly gospel and your stupid mountain. Drop dead.

Paul O