CaliforniaKid wrote:Lucy was certainly a Seeker, as Vogel himself has documented in detail. But then, so was Joseph Sr. Their Seekerisms were of different varieties, though. Seeker or no, Lucy joined the Presbyterian church in response to the minister's sermon claiming that Alvin had been damned to hell. She was apparently concerned that he might be right, and her other children might suffer the same fate. This is a Seekerism of a pretty evangelical bent. Joseph Sr., meanwhile, was a "Restorationer," meaning he believed in post-mortem salvation-- a theme amply utilized by Joseph Jr.
Don't get me wrong, lulu. Joseph Jr. was certainly influenced by both his parents. His own early Methodist and Baptist leanings are considerably more in line with his mom's beliefs than his dad's. (It was after attending a Methodist meeting with Lucy that Joseph Sr. nearly got creamed by Asael's copy of The Age of Reason.) But I don't see much evidence of intent on Lucy's part "to get the religion she wanted" through the Book of Mormon. The prediction that there would be a prophet in the family came from the Smith side of the family, not from the Macks.
In your defense, though, I agree that the gender norms of the day would tend to cause any contributions by Lucy to be overlooked.
But instead of looking at what a woman said about herself, we are going to talk about Alvin? The programing runs deep.
I'm not sure what this means. What are you suggesting Lucy said about herself? I don't see her claiming to be a co-conspirator.
I'm suggesting that in 1844-5 she stated that the core idea of Momornism was her own before Joseph, Jr. was born.
She didn't just contribute, she didn't just influence. She did a thing in itself. Albeit in gendered ways. But then Joseph, Jr. acted in gendered ways also, we all do.
Let's talk about Lucy qua Lucy.
How did she seek right religion directly from heaven?
How, in her gendered state, did she get it?
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
lulu wrote:I'm suggesting that in 1844-5 she stated that the core idea of Momornism was her own before Joseph, Jr. was born.
I disagree that Seekerism is the core idea of Mormonism. It's an important idea, certainly, and it's the core idea of the first vision in at least some of the accounts. But there's far, far more to Mormonism than just that.
Nor was this "core idea" exclusive to Lucy. Her husband evidently believed the same, and a great crowd of Seekers before them.
She didn't just contribute, she didn't just influence. She did a thing in itself. Albeit in gendered ways. But then Joseph, Jr. acted in gendered ways also, we all do.
Sure. Lucy did lots of things. Lucy was a strong and interesting woman, to be sure. I'm all for recovering female agency and studying the things Lucy did in her own right. I just don't happen to think founding Mormonism was one of those things. If you can build a case for it, I'd love to hear it. That would really be something. But I don't currently see any evidence for it.
lulu wrote:I'm suggesting that in 1844-5 she stated that the core idea of Momornism was her own before Joseph, Jr. was born.
CaliforniaKid wrote:I disagree that Seekerism is the core idea of Mormonism. It's an important idea, certainly, and it's the core idea of the first vision in at least some of the accounts. But there's far, far more to Mormonism than just that.
What would you say is the core idea of Mormonism?
CaliforniaKid wrote:Nor was this "core idea" exclusive to Lucy. Her husband evidently believed the same, and a great crowd of Seekers before them.
True, but she was the first known to have voiced it in the Smith-Mack family.
lulu wrote:She didn't just contribute, she didn't just influence. She did a thing in itself. Albeit in gendered ways. But then Joseph, Jr. acted in gendered ways also, we all do.
CaliforniaKid wrote:Sure. Lucy did lots of things. Lucy was a strong and interesting woman, to be sure. I'm all for recovering female agency and studying the things Lucy did in her own right. I just don't happen to think founding Mormonism was one of those things. If you can build a case for it, I'd love to hear it. That would really be something. But I don't currently see any evidence for it.
You didn't answer my question, how did Lucy, in her gendered life, seek and obtain right religion directly from heaven?
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
lulu wrote:You didn't answer my question, how did Lucy, in her gendered life, seek and obtain right religion directly from heaven?
You mean besides prayer, Bible reading, singing, composing hymns, dreams, impressions, etc.?
Wow, you mean she never spoke of religion to her children nor taught them the faculty of abrac?
PS What's the core idea of Mormonism?
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
lulu wrote:Wow, you mean she never spoke of religion to her children nor taught them the faculty of abrac?
You asked me how she sought and obtained religion directly from heaven, not what she taught to her children. Instead of beating around the bush, why not just lay out your argument? I'll be happy to read and consider it. So is it basically your contention that by teaching Joseph religion and magic, Lucy was therefore indirectly the founder of Mormonism? I think that's a stretch, but I'm willing to agree that Mormonism probably wouldn't have happened without her. My teachers generally aren't responsible for what I choose to do with the things they teach me, even if my choices wouldn't have been possible otherwise.
PS What's the core idea of Mormonism?
There are plenty of possible answers to that. Mormonism is huge, and covers a lot of territory. Personally, I'm tempted to say either the restoration of Israel or exaltation. Maybe I'd say the former is the core concept, and the latter is the core motivation.
beastie wrote:Is it possible that Alvin, or even Lucy, helped author the Book of Mormon?
I'd vote for Emma before Lucy. She sits next to him, writing it down, on one occasion (only one?) when Joseph Smith gets confused, Emma clarifies for him. There are probably enough Emma holographs to run a word print, but no one has.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
Cicero wrote: In all seriousness, I find Emma Smith to be the most interesting person in all of Mormon history.
I'm coming to agree with you on that.
I'd like to see a work that focused on Lucy and Emma together. I think lulu's speculations have a lot going for them Chris, though I would hesitate to call her "founder," I think a similar term, perhaps the more familial "progenitor," would help in reconstructing her role.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."