Why Men Will Have to Share Their Wives in the CK

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_beastie
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Re: Why Men Will Have to Share Their Wives in the CK

Post by _beastie »

Because I have time right now, and won't have time later today, I want to add another thought to the conversation.

The best way to understand the WHY behind human behavior isn't to listen to what people SAY about "why". People tend to create post-hoc explanations that justify behavior, and those explanations may or may not accurately portray the real "why". You must look at the results of the behavior, particularly a repetitive behavior. The results tell you the "why".

The results of polygyny are predictable. In fact, there's only one predictable result: certain men, normally alpha males who are powerful leaders in the community, end up with more wives and offspring.

Polygyny, as practiced in the early LDS church, was not about taking care of widows and orphans. For one thing, widows and orphans could have been taken care of without a marriage taking place. For another thing, the most powerful men in LDS history weren't marrying widows and orphans who had no one else to take care of them. They were marrying the more desirable women who often had other candidates for marriage. They were marrying women who already had husbands. The way polygyny was practiced in early LDS Utah had the result of having a shortage of potential wives. Younger men served missions, and part of the purpose of their mission seemed to be to find a wife, and bring home other eligible females.

As it was on earth, it will be in heaven, if Mormonism is true. That means that the most powerful alpha males, who can be recognized by the fact that they have high callings in the church, usually as general authorities, will be rewarded by having multiple wives and more offspring - even if the cost is that less worthy - or beta males - will have to do with no wife at all.

Joseph Smith, in discussing polygamy with Benjamin Johnson, told him to listen carefully to his sermon that night, which would contain a message that only he would understand. In that sermon, Joseph Smith talked about the parable of the talents.

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1843/2Apr43.html#N_7_

What is the meaning of the Scriptures, he that is faithful over a few things shall be made ruler over many, and he that is faithful over many, shall be made ruler over many more? What is the meaning of the parable of the ten talents? Also the conversation with Nicodemus, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit? Were questions put to one which I shall not answer at present.


The reference was apparently to plural marriage, according to Benjamin F. Johnson (note 2) who claimed a conversation prior to the meeting involved Joseph explaining the doctrine and saying he would preach something only Johnson would understand (see Johnson's autobiography).


Many sources, including Kathryn Daynes, whom LDS trust as a source, assert that Brigham Young went on to explain the connection between the parable of the talents and polygamy.

http://books.google.com/books?id=8RuWiM ... ts&f=false

Young said monogamists were the slothful servants who would have even their ONE wife taken from them, and given to faithful polygamists.

I'm not referring to these things because they're official doctrine. I'm referring to them to bolster my argument that polygamy was not really about taking care of excess females. It was about rewarding the more righteous and deserving alpha males with increased wives and offspring. And females would be better off with that alpha male than with being the one wife of a faithful monogamist.

This is one part of early Mormonism that has become somewhat disconnected to modern Mormonism: the idea of a royal bloodline within the faithful. It comes from the Book of Abraham scripture that asserted that some spirits were more faithful and righteous in the pre-existence, and would be sent as leaders of the LDS church in this life. They're the ones on a fast track to exaltation and glory. They're the ones that deserve more wives and more offspring.

I think it's sad, actually, to see faithful LDS men defending the practice of polygamy, when, if all these things were actually true, they will likely be victims of the practice themselves.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_Ludd
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Re: Why Men Will Have to Share Their Wives in the CK

Post by _Ludd »

I admit up front that I don't have a ton of knowledge about early Mormon polygamy. With that said:

beastie:
the most powerful men in LDS history weren't marrying widows and orphans who had no one else to take care of them. They were marrying the more desirable women who often had other candidates for marriage.

Were these "more desirable women" more or less forced to marry the big shots? Or could they refuse the offer and marry one of the "other candidates"?

They were marrying women who already had husbands.

This happened more than just with Joseph Smith in Nauvoo? I didn't know that. Were the husbands "out of town" at the time or did they just have to accept having their wife taken from them? Where can I read more about this?

Younger men served missions, and part of the purpose of their mission seemed to be to find a wife, and bring home other eligible females.

Sounds like the kind of mission I could get into! But seriously, this is the first I have heard of this too. Where can I read more about this?
_beastie
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Re: Why Men Will Have to Share Their Wives in the CK

Post by _beastie »

Ludd,

I would start out by reading Mormon Polygamy by Richard Van Wagoner. Yes, other church leaders married women who already had husbands, such as Brigham Young, who married one of Joseph Smith's so-called "widows" Zina Huntington while her husband Jacob was serving a mission - that BY sent him on.

The desirable women weren't forced to marry anyone, unless you call heavy religious persuasion force. Like Helen Mar Kimball, they were willing to sacrifice themselves for a greater glory. Women normally only agree to polygamy due to strong religious pressure, anyway. Despite the imaginings of some men that females are less inclined to resent sharing a spouse, females normally prefer monogamy. Many of these women's journals show that they experienced heartbreak in this life, while hoping to be rewarded for their sacrifice in the next.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_harmony
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Re: Why Men Will Have to Share Their Wives in the CK

Post by _harmony »

beastie wrote:This is one part of early Mormonism that has become somewhat disconnected to modern Mormonism: the idea of a royal bloodline within the faithful.


Mention Mormon Royalty now, and all you get is denials of such a thing. Some people just don't like the idea that among other things, Joseph wanted to be King of the World.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_beastie
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Re: Why Men Will Have to Share Their Wives in the CK

Post by _beastie »

harmony wrote:
Mention Mormon Royalty now, and all you get is denials of such a thing. Some people just don't like the idea that among other things, Joseph wanted to be King of the World.


They can deny it all they want, but it's clear that certain families with long histories in leadership positions in the church continue to be favored for such positions.


http://mormonmatters.org/2008/04/14/nep ... he-church/

It's just that the earlier church was more open about it and willing to defend it theologically. Today's church pretends it's not happening.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Brackite
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Re: Why Men Will Have to Share Their Wives in the CK

Post by _Brackite »

The sex ratio in the Celestial Kingdom will be 105 males for about every 100 females.

The Following is From About.com:

How many boys are born for every 100 girls?

There are 105 boy babies born for ever 100 girl babies worldwide but scientists haven't determined why this sex ratio is so.


(Link: http://geography.about.com/library/faq/ ... eratio.htm )
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_beastie
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Re: Why Men Will Have to Share Their Wives in the CK

Post by _beastie »

Brackite wrote:The sex ratio in the Celestial Kingdom will be 105 males for about every 100 females.

The Following is From About.com:

How many boys are born for every 100 girls?

There are 105 boy babies born for ever 100 girl babies worldwide but scientists haven't determined why this sex ratio is so.


(Link: http://geography.about.com/library/faq/ ... eratio.htm )


Brackite,

That doesn't factor infant mortality rates.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_son of Ishmael
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Re: Why Men Will Have to Share Their Wives in the CK

Post by _son of Ishmael »

Why Men Will Have to Share Their Wives in the CK. MMMM......Do we get watch?....
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. - The Dude

Don't you know there ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk - Tom Waits
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