Kids who die before age 8 DON'T automatically go to the C.K.

[_Cylon]

Jo, thank you for providing yet more evidence that the correlated church of today bears very little resemblance to the restored church of the 19th century.

In all seriousness, though, that's fascinating stuff. I had never heard those quotes before, so thanks for sharing them.

[_jo1952]

Nobody disputes that. The more salient issue is whether Mormonism has produced any true teachers, true apostles, or true prophets.

The overwhelming weight of the evidence says no.

Hi Darth,

In the strictest definitions of the terms "True Teachers", "True Apostles", or "True Prophets" - which is a higher understanding of those "titles", it has been God who calls them to those positions; either directly, or through revelation. I believe Joseph Smith was called directly by God. In his writings, Joseph Smith-in a prophetic moment said of Brigham Young after Brigham had left the group that were with Joseph, "There goes the next Prophet of the Church".

Since that time I believe that at the very least, some of our Apostles and Prophets may also have been called as "True Teachers", "True Apostles", or "True Prophets". Others I consider to have been inspired teachers - but not to the degree of being called to that higher understanding and "title".

I have not come to understand this in the way that many people use when they view what has been going on in the Church. Most (but not all) people, it appears to me, use only man's logic and reasoning...their motivations do not stem from a desire to seek continually for more Truth. Rather, their reasons are more temporally/worldly bound. The way that I have come to understand this is due to the continuing Truth which the Holy Spirit is leading me to. I believe this how some others have also come to this understanding.

Nevertheless, I still believe that the Church is a useful tool for God to accomplish His purposes. There are many, many righteous members of the Church who are doing what they need to do in order to progress in their personal journey to be able to return to God. Therefore, I try to use caution NOT to be the source or cause of someone losing their faith in God. For many DO lose their faith once they become dissillusioned---regardless of the religious institution they happen to be a member of when dissillusionment overtakes them. It may take them years to get their faith back; or it may even cause them to need to return in another incarnation...rather than to continue to progress in their journey.

For instance, I was raised a Lutheran. I saw at an early age that they were not teaching what the Bible was teaching me. Ever since I joined the LDS Church, I have been able to grow spiritually and have been prepared to be able to receive more Truth from the Holy Spirit. In fact, in the last three years I have experienced an acceleration. Within the last year, even more so. In the last few months I feel like I am reaching critical mass.

In other words, it does not matter where we are or who we are. If we are truly and sincerely seeking truth wherever we can find it (just like Joseph taught), the gates of Heaven will open up, and through the Holy Spirit we will receive more and more Truth....even experiencing moments when we actually get glimpses of the Kingdom of God!! This has been achieved while I have been a member of the Church.

Blessings,

jo

[_jo1952]

Jo, thank you for providing yet more evidence that the correlated church of today bears very little resemblance to the restored church of the 19th century.

In all seriousness, though, that's fascinating stuff. I had never heard those quotes before, so thanks for sharing them.

Hello Cylon!!

I feel very strongly - spiritually speaking - that something very significant is taking place on the earth. I also am seeing this same thing being manifested by many of the posters on this board. I know that you sense it. I know that Tobin senses it; as do NightLion and others. Some posters are at the beginning of catching on...and still others - well - not so much. But that is OKAY!!

The Truth I understand today will be expanded upon tomorrow. That is how quickly I am able to see and grasp and increase and receive more Truth. So, by tomorrow my perspective is going to be different than today. It is amazing!

Inasmuch as this is all very stimulating spiritually, I also feel that caution needs to be used. I believe that there is currently a balance of Good and Evil being maintained on the earth. However, things are becoming polarized - so we need to be careful that we are not fooled by the influences of our adversary.

I am very much looking forward to how the posts on this subject are going to be unfolding on this board. I noticed we have a new member who has only posted a handful of times....but many of us are being drawn to him. Now, inasmuch as any of us can unwittingly step into Satan's camp, I do not wish to just start running with him until I have had a chance to watch and observe - at least for another day or so. Evil can mask itself as "light" and be a counterfeit of truth.

Blessings,

jo

[_Darth J]

Jo, the issue I have been addressing is the mistaken claim of fact that the personal religious ideas that you or Tobin have come up with accurately reflect the teachings of the LDS Church. They do not.

Plato, Henry Ford, and Patton are not sources of LDS eschatology, so your reference to them is irrelevant.

"8 June 1889: During our talks he [Lorenzo Snow] told me that his sister, the late Eliza R. Snow Smith was a firm believer in the principle of reincarnation and that she claimed to have received it from Joseph the Prophet, her husband. He said he [Lorenzo Snow] saw nothing ureasonable in it, and could believe it, if it came to him from the Lord or His oracle." ---Diary of Orson F. Whitney, 8 June 1889 entry, Church Archives

So one of your bases for asserting that reincarnation is consistent with the doctrine of the LDS Church is a triple-hearsay (Joseph Smith--Eliza Snow--Lorenzo Snow--Orson Whitney) statement from Orson Whitney's diary 52 years after Joseph Smith died. And you feel that this is a reliable source on which to base your factual claim (that reincarnation is taught as part of Mormon eschatology)?

The Mormon History Association awarded Lance S. Owens's "Joseph Smith and Kabbalah: The Occult Connection" its Best Article Award for 1995.Owens's basic thesis that concepts taken directly from the text was used in his most important doctrinal sermon, the "King Follett Discourse." (p. 119): "In centuries past the teachings of the Kabbalah were closely guarded and taught to a chosen few, but today the Jewish Kabbalah is being taught to anyone with a unveiled spiritual perception and a desire to learn. Joseph Smith had a desire to learn.

The Kabbalah--the Hebrew esoteric doctrines--is a system of teachings with which only the very learned attempt to wrestle. It is claimed to have been handed down by oral tradition from angelic sources, through Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, the Seventy Elders, to David and to Solomon. . Man has ears to hear, but hears not, He has eyes to see, but sees not.” King David

King David was a great warrior by day and a great mystic of the Kabbalah by night. Many of the great Cabbalists of history made reference to the above quote when illustrating one of the first spiritual laws of. Life No attempt was made to commit this sacred knowledge to writing, till, in the early centuries of the Christian era (authorities differ widely as to the date) the pupils of Rabbi Simeon ben Joachi put his teachings into writing; and this in later ages became known as the "Zohar," or "Book of Splendor religion of the Kabbalah as a gift of the Deity to mankind."

The Zohar, which is only a part of the Kabbalah, is the great store-house of the esoteric teaching of the ancient Hebrews.The following is a quote from the Sephar ha Zohar. The souls must re-enter the Absolute, from whence they have emerged. But to accomplish this end they must develop the perfections; the germ of which is planted in them. And if they have not developed these traits in this one life, then they must commence another, a third, and so forth. They must go on like this until they acquire the condition that allows them to associate again with God. General George S. Patton: "I have fought in many guises, many names, but always me."

Henry Ford: "Genius is experience. Some think to seem that it is a gift or talent, but it is the fruit of long experience in many lives".

In April 1843 Joseph Smith said the purpose of successive probations or 'worlds' was to permit the gradual accumulation of intelligence and knowledge.

Orson Pratt taught that if a soul has not proved itself in this Probation the soul may be cast into another world and live out another probation. (October 6, 1853. Journal of Discourses Vol 1, p. 332)

Heber Kimball: "When an unbaked pot is broken, the potter can use the mud to make a new one, but when a baked one is broken, he cannot do the same any longer. So when a person dies in a state of ignorance, he is born again but when he becomes well baked in the fire of true knowledge and dies a perfect man, he is not born again.”

"When the elements in an organized form do not fill the end of their creation, they are thrown back again."

Plato taught that before each incarnation, the soul enters into a forgetfulness of what has gone before. The purpose of human learning and philosophy is, then, to reawaken in the soul remembrance of the eternal, spiritual realm of pure forms and ideas.

Many of the most famous Early Church Fathers also believed in reincarnation. I can provide some quotes if you like. Also, there is evidence in the Bible of an existing and understood belief in reincarnation.

That's really impressive, Jo. Here's where you plagiarized it from:

http://mormonmysticism.blogspot.com/200 ... 7218024879

The Mormon History Association awarded Lance S. Owens's "Joseph Smith and Kabbalah: The Occult Connection" its Best Article Award for 1995.Owens's basic thesis that concepts taken directly from the text was used in his most important doctrinal sermon, the "King Follett Discourse." (p. 119)
In centuries past the teachings of the Kabbalah were closely guarded and taught to a chosen few, but today the Jewish Kabbalah is being taught to anyone with a unveiled spiritual perception and a desire to learn. Joseph Smith had a desire to learn.
The Kabbalah--the Hebrew esoteric doctrines--is a system of teachings with which only the very learned attempt to wrestle. It is claimed to have been handed down by oral tradition from angelic sources, through Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, the Seventy Elders, to David and to Solomon. . Man has ears to hear, but hears not, He has eyes to see, but sees not.” King David
King David was a great warrior by day and a great mystic of the Kabbalah by night. Many of the great Cabbalists of history made reference to the above quote when illustrating one of the first spiritual laws of. Life No attempt was made to commit this sacred knowledge to writing, till, in the early centuries of the Christian era (authorities differ widely as to the date) the pupils of Rabbi Simeon ben Joachi put his teachings into writing; and this in later ages became known as the "Zohar," or "Book of Splendor religion of the Kabbalah as a gift of the Deity to mankind."
The Zohar, which is only a part of the Kabbalah, is the great store-house of the esoteric teaching of the ancient Hebrews.The following is a quote from the Sephar ha Zohar. The souls must re-enter the Absolute, from whence they have emerged. But to accomplish this end they must develop the perfections; the germ of which is planted in them. And if they have not developed these traits in this one life, then they must commence another, a third, and so forth. They must go on like this until they acquire the condition that allows them to associate again with God
Someone once said that the death of a dogma represents the birth of a reality. And what is reality? ,
General George S. Patton I have fought in many guises, many names, but always me." Henry Ford
Genius is experience. Some think to seem that it is a gift or talent, but it is the fruit of long experience in many lives".
April 1843 Joseph Smith said the purpose of successive probations or 'worlds' was to permit the gradual accumulation of intelligence and knowledge,”
Orson Pratt taught that if a soul has not proved itself in this Probation the soul may be cast into another world and live out another probation. (October 6, 1853. Journal of Discourses Vol 1, p. 332
Heber Kimball: "When an unbaked pot is broken, the potter can use the mud to make a new one, but when a baked one is broken, he cannot do the same any longer. So when a person dies in a state of ignorance, he is born again but when he becomes well baked in the fire of true knowledge and dies a perfect man, he is not born again.”
"When the elements in an organized form do not fill the end of their creation, they are thrown back again
Thus each day, or each lifetime, we return to the hands of the potter to be made into a new vessel, and once again a new experience, a new avenue of growth on our journey to perfection......

Plato taught that before each incarnation, the soul enters into a forgetfulness of what has gone before. The purpose of human learning and philosophy is, then, to reawaken in the soul remembrance of the eternal, spiritual realm of pure forms and ideas.

The rest of your post is plagiarized from John Martin's comments on that blog from April 10, 2010.

E.g., you said: "Throughout her life Eliza referred to her beloved husband Joseph Smith as her first and only love "The choice of my heart and the crown of my life". (Eliza R. Snow, "Past and Present," Woman's Exponent 15 (August 1, 1886): 37). Before she died on December 5, 1887, Eliza told her brother, Lorenzo Snow, that she “was a firm believer in the principle of multiple probations… [Having] received it from Joseph the Prophet, her husband”. There were others. For instance, Prescendia Huntington Buell who married Joseph Smith in December of 1841 indicated that Joseph spoke with her about "plural probations".

Hyrum Smith(brother of Joseph Smith) also believed in what he called plural probations –”How could people progress to a different kingdom unless there were probations to prove them worthy? Might there be something to our belief that this is the telestial world? Notice the phrases used to describe it: They suffer the wrath of God on earth (could this life actually be a punishment?) Others who are also in the telestial kingdom are considered servants unto the Most High.

Joseph L. Robinson and Charles W. Penrose and his wives claimed that Joseph Smith was the source for their belief in mortal probations."

John Martin said:

http://mormonmysticism.blogspot.com/200 ... 6283953382

Throughout her life Eliza referred to beloved husband Joseph Smith as her first and only love
"The choice of my heart and the crown of my life". (Eliza R. Snow, "Past and Present," Woman's Exponent 15 (August 1, 1886): 37). Before she died on December 5, 1887, Eliza told her brother Lorenzo Snow that she “was a firm believer in the principle of multiple probations… [Having] received it from Joseph the Prophet, her husband”. There were of course others For instance, Prescendia Huntington Buell who married Joseph Smith in December of 1841 indicated that Joseph spoke with her about "plural probations.
........
Hyrum Smith(brother of Joseph Smith) also believed in what he called plural probations –”How could people progress to a different kingdom unless? there were prob ations to prove them worthy? Might there be something to our belief that this is the telestial world? Notice the phrases Used to describe it: They suffer the wrath of God on earth (could this life actually be a punishment? Others who are also in the telestial kingdom are considered servants unto the Most High” Joseph L. Robinson and Charles W. Penrose and his wives claimed that Joseph Smith was the source for their belief in mortal probation.

But hey, I can copy and paste someone else's words, too! Except that I disclose who really said it, instead of passing off someone else's words as if they were my own. Here's Bill Hamblin responding to that Owens article referred to in the John Martin comment that you plagiarized: http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... 89-8-2.pdf

You (or rather, the person you are plagiarizing) are also taking people's statements out of context. In the Orson Pratt JOD reference, he was giving a talk about the meek inheriting the Earth, and explaining that this planet Earth will be the Celestial Kingdom, so everyone who does not make it to the Celestial Kingdom will have to earn their place on some other planet (where the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms will be) after the resurrection. He was not talking about reincarnation; the context of his sermon makes that clear.

http://jod.mrm.org/1/328

And thus, all the different portions of the earth have been and will be disposed of to the lawful heirs; while those who cannot prove their heirship to be legal, or who cannot prove that they have received any portion of the earth by promise, will be cast out into some other kingdom or world, where, if they ever get an inheritance, they will have to earn it by keeping the law of meekness during another probation.
How great will be the disappointment to the rich, the high and the noble, who have rejected the messages of eternal truth, sent forth in different ages for the redemption of men, when they find that there is not a foot of the new earth that they can call their own; the whole of it having been lawfully disposed of to the poor and the meek.
Howl, then, ye rich men, who reject the message of the servants of God; for your portion is in this life, and you have no claim upon the everlasting inheritance. God will rescue the earth from under your dominion, and give it to those unto whom it is promised.

In fact, that very same talk is quite explicit that there is only one birth, one death and one resurrection for everyone, and that is it. Page 329:

The penalty of the first transgression was an eternal separation of body and spirit, and eternal banishment from the presence of Jehovah; while the penalty of our own transgressions does not involve a disunion of body and spirit, but only eternal banishment. The first penalty not only shut man out from the presence of God, but deprived him eternally of a body; the second penalty permits him to retain his body, though in a banished condition. As the penalties are different, so also is the redemption. Redemption from the first penalty is unconditional on the part of man; redemption from the second penalty is conditional. Unconditional redemption is universal; it takes within its scope all mankind; it is as unlimited as the fall; it redeems men from all its effects; it restores to them their bodies; it restores them to the presence of God.

I can keep going with the other statements attributed to early Mormon leaders from your post, if you want. Should I continue, or do you need some time to find more things to plagiarize?

DISCLAIMER: As I stated before in this thread, my only interest here is the claim of fact involved when people make things up, assert those things to be indicative of LDS teachings, and then tell everyone else that they don't understand a thing about Mormonism. I'm really not interested in the alleged truth value of meta-myths invented to find some profound gnosis in Joseph Smith's frontier tall tales.

[_Darth J]

Most (but not all) people, it appears to me, use only man's logic and reasoning...

Whereas other abstain from it.

In summary, neither the Church nor its leaders have any particular claim to authority or truth, but somehow the Church is true anyway.

[_gramps]

jo1952 wrote:

I feel very strongly - spiritually speaking - that something very significant is taking place on the earth.

Funny, I heard this exact same statement from multiple ravers while living in Japan. Of course, they could be excused due to the MDMA and LSD-25 coursing through their veins, and brains.

Who needs Looney Tunes when you have Mormon Discussions. ;)

[_Drifting]

Jo1952,

“We are a global church. Our membership is found throughout the world. May we be good citizens of the nations in which we live and good neighbors in our communities, reaching out to those of other faiths as well as to those of our own. May we be examples of honesty and integrity wherever we go and in whatever we do.” President Monson

Do you think passing off other peoples words as your own is an example of someone following his counsel, or perhaps not?
How do you feel about the Articles of Faith, in particular the one about being honest and true?

I think, given the comprehensive evidence of your plagiarism, that you owe the board an apology and perhaps it's worth you making an appointment to see your Bishop next Sunday to talk about your Temple Recommend.

Misleading people is what we are told Satan does, you're not Satan are you?

[_jo1952]

Jo, the issue I have been addressing is the mistaken claim of fact that the personal religious ideas that you or Tobin have come up with accurately reflect the teachings of the LDS Church. They do not.

Darth,

You are so consumed with your agenda, you are not able to see. Maybe you never were able to see. If you did at one time see, your negative efforts have now caused you to lose what you had before.

So one of your bases for asserting that reincarnation is consistent with the doctrine of the LDS Church is a triple-hearsay (Joseph Smith--Eliza Snow--Lorenzo Snow--Orson Whitney) statement from Orson Whitney's diary 52 years after Joseph Smith died. And you feel that this is a reliable source on which to base your factual claim (that reincarnation is taught as part of Mormon eschatology)?

Yes. However, if that had been the only evidence I had found it wouldn't have made for a very strong case, would it?

That's really impressive, Jo. Here's where you plagiarized it from:

http://mormonmysticism.blogspot.com/200 ... 7218024879

Hello Darth,

This was my source as it appears in my word document. I thought that I had picked up that line when I copied it into my post (actually, his first post was dated June 17, 2008...not Dec. 18, 2007):

http://mormonmysticism.blogspot.com/200 ... ation.html

I apologize that I did not notice it wasn't included in my copying over the information. In fact, if someone wants to take the time to see everything that this poster contributed, they will need to scroll down to find John Martin's first post, as his comments do not appear at the top of the page. Anyway, this particular subject on David Littlefield's blog site has several posters who have added their comments as well. It is extremely interesting. The posts also reaffirm what I am discovering from personal conversations with other members of the Church, as well as other sources available on the Internet which involve the opinions of Church members. That, of course, is that they also believe in reincarnation.

In fact, that very same talk is quite explicit that there is only one birth, one death and one resurrection for everyone, and that is it. Page 329:

People will see what they are ready or want to see.

DISCLAIMER: As I stated before in this thread, my only interest here is the claim of fact involved when people make things up, assert those things to be indicative of LDS teachings, and then tell everyone else that they don't understand a thing about Mormonism. I'm really not interested in the alleged truth value of meta-myths invented to find some profound gnosis in Joseph Smith's frontier tall tales.

Again, people will see what they are ready or want to see. Do you understand Paul's epistles to the church in Corinth? There is a difference between a milk understanding (which is temporal), and a meat understanding (which is spiritual). For instance, Paul also talks about "parts". In these teachings, as in all of Scripture, there are layered meanings. He talks about "parts" in the sense that each member of the church makes up a part of the whole body of Christ (which also has layers of meaning - both temporal and spiritual); as well as "parts" of Truth which each individual needs to acquire until they have received All Truth. If one cannot understand his teachings, they will begin to see conflict in his words; they will also come up with many incorrect interpretations even at a temporal level.

I bring all of this up because I see in you an inability to "see". This is why you fight so hard against those who do not agree with you. This is what would eventually cause people to so often kill the Prophets. ...that, and sometimes they just didn't want to hear what the Prophets had to say.

This is another thing the Apostles taught us - especially Paul. Those who have had more Truth revealed to them are persecuted by those who do not have as much Truth and those who have no Truth. They call those who have more Truth fools. So, even those with only a milk understanding do not recognize spiritual Truth, and will call those who do understand and have spiritual Truth fools.

Meanwhile, the information provided by John Martin is verifiable. In fact, in my researching, I had already made copies of many of the same quotes which had come from the same sources which he had used. However, he had not only already put them into a single document, he also offered additional information which I had not yet come across. Those things I also verified before I would consider presenting. The quotes and their sources are legitimate. So your ranting and raving cannot change that, even if you do what you accuse others of doing; i.e., as you manifested in your "disclaimer". In other words, you have made up your own story by calling Joseph Smith's gnosis frontier tall tales. I do agree with you, though, you are not interested in alleged truth. This indicates that you are not really seeking Truth; as all Truth can only BE alleged until the Holy Spirit reveals it AS Truth. You are more interested in the fight. Darth, if you are not sincerely seeking Truth, you will never find it. All you will be able to do is form an opinion about what you think is true derived from temporal/worldly sources.

The reason I left in the references from non-LDS sources was to show a couple of interesting quotes that other people also believe in reincarnation who stem from our western culture.

Now, inasmuch as Joseph Smith was RESTORING the Gospel message as it was originally taught and understood by Jesus and the ancient Apostles, I also did research on what Early Church Fathers taught/believed about reincarnation. I spent several days searching different sources until I was satisfied that what I added to my research results was accurate. Some of the more well known ECFs indeed believed in reincarnation. Therefore, it is only reasonable to believe that this knowledge would have been given to Joseph Smith since it is something that the ancient church also believed. Thus the knowledge about reincarnation (or multiple probations) would have been included in what was Restored to Joseph. As I have indicated before, evidence of belief in reincarnation also appears in the Bible.

Blessings,

jo

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Mr. Jo,

Please address the plagiarism, and why you're so willing to be dishonest about your source material. Not a good reflection on Mormons, friend.

- VRDRC

[_Drifting]

Perhaps Jo1952 is unfamiliar with the word...let me help...

Plagiarism is defined in dictionaries as the "wrongful appropriation," "close imitation," or "purloining and publication" of another author's "language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions," and the representation of them as one's own original work,