Kids who die before age 8 DON'T automatically go to the C.K.

[_Darth J]

1. LDS dogma is that this planet will become the Celestial Kingdom. The CK is the final destination of the righteous after the resurrection. The pre-mortal existence is not the CK. The reason LDS curricula do not say babies are saved in the spirit world is that the spirit world is not the ultimate destiny of anyone. It is a holding place until the resurrection. "Salvation" means the CK.

2. Tobin, the problem is that not only does your Mormon fanfic suck, it consistently contradicts what the Church says.

[_Cicero]

1. LDS dogma is that this planet will become the Celestial Kingdom. The CK is the final destination of the righteous after the resurrection. The pre-mortal existence is not the CK. The reason LDS curricula do not say babies are saved in the spirit world is that the spirit world is not the ultimate destiny of anyone. It is a holding place until the resurrection. "Salvation" means the CK.

2. Tobin, the problem is that not only does your Mormon fanfic suck, it consistently contradicts what the Church says.

Ah, the irony of an exmo trying to educate a believing Mormon about what his church actually teaches.

[_Tobin]

1. LDS dogma is that this planet will become the Celestial Kingdom. The CK is the final destination of the righteous after the resurrection. The pre-mortal existence is not the CK. The reason LDS curricula do not say babies are saved in the spirit world is that the spirit world is not the ultimate destiny of anyone. It is a holding place until the resurrection. "Salvation" means the CK.

2. Tobin, the problem is that not only does your Mormon fanfic suck, it consistently contradicts what the Church says.

Ah, the irony of an exmo trying to educate a believing Mormon about what his church actually teaches.

Darth J isn't educating me on a single thing. He's spouting his normal non-sense. Of course where God dwells is the Celestial Kingdom and his idea that it isn't is just absurd.

[_Franktalk]

Tobin,

Keep up the good work. Don't trust that anyone has scripture correct. Read it for yourself and listen to the Spirit. The world is filled with naysayers. I rather be right 30% of the time than follow the words of men and be wrong 100% of the time.

The afterlife is way more complex than this existence. We are but blind men trying to describe an elephant. Even in heaven there is a witness to keep us on track. In fact there are three.

Job 16:19 Also now, behold, my witness is in heaven, and my record is on high.

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Yet on earth the witness is a different mix.

1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Notice that the Word is not a witness on the earth. That is because in this weak state we can't get it right. So you keep up the struggle and listen to no one that is in a house of flesh.

[Guest]

Darth J isn't educating me on a single thing. He's spouting his normal non-sense. Of course where God dwells is the Celestial Kingdom and his idea that it isn't is just absurd.

You're saying 60,000,000,000+ spirits destined for Earth lived with God on Kolob along Him, His wives, all THEIR families, all the resurrected beings from whatever other worlds, and angles, resurrected animals, architecture, infrastructure, etc...?

You clearly don't have any concept of Mormon theology, friend.

- VRDRC

[_jo1952]

To believers, kids go to the CK if they die before the 'age of accountability'. This is a basic and well established doctrine.

The thing Tobin isn't considering is that those spirits were so valiant and so overly righteous in the pre-existence that they are exempt from this earth life's tests. It's like when a student 'tests out' of say, Pre-algebra and goes right into Algebra 1.

What Tobin is saying is foreign to anything I've ever heard or been taught.

Hello Falcon A,

It is only a basic and well established doctrine when it is being discussed all by itself. However, when you try to reconcile it with other very basic and well established doctrine, it just doesn't work out. The purpose of coming to the earth is to learn things we could not learn without actually experiencing them in the flesh; and to have our faith tested through a veil of forgetfulness. I think that the concept of having been so valiant, etc., in the pre-existence that they are exempt from life's tests, is something someone came up with as an excuse for not actually understanding the whole picture.

Since we all agreed to the Plan of Salvation (which means we all agreed to go through the process of coming to earth so that we could learn and progress in the flesh), to then start giving excuses as why some don't have to do this (even though they also agreed to it) needs to be reconciled within itself. Jesus taught us that it is the Holy Spirit who will lead us to All Truth. The Plan of Salvation is also a test for us to walk in faith. I don't think being valiant can be equated to having already received All Truth by the Holy Spirit OR be equated with going through the process of walking in faith until All Truth has been revealed to us while we are in the flesh.

The more Truth that is revealed to me, the easier it is to see the big picture. Also, ALL of scripture must be able to be reconciled within itself. If it cannot be reconciled, then something is terribly wrong. At that point a person (if they are being completely honest with themself) will need to throw out various passages and doctrines. This would be an admission that it cannot have been God who inspired His True Prophets to have recorded it. This opens the door to start picking which passages you will choose to believe in. Isn't this exactly what happened in the RCC, and later in the Reformed churches?

I believe in reincarnation; I believe that Joseph Smith believed in reincarnation. I am discovering that there are more and more LDS who are coming to believe in it as well. The very concept of reincarnation helps to reconcile many of our beliefs and the passages in Scripture which we point to in order to support those beliefs; which in turn also reconciles Scripture within itself.

I would like to ask you how the concept taught by Joseph Smith wherein he said that children who die before the age of accountability can still be raised by their parents during the Millenium, reconciles with your current understanding? Will a child NEED to be raised once he has a resurrected glorified body? We are taught that our glorified body will be one of full stature in order to hold our spirit. A body of flesh, since it starts out as a baby, does not seem like it could be a temple for our full stature spirit. I do not believe that our spirit is a baby spirit before we come here. How could we have understood or agreed to the Plan of Salvation if our spirits were only baby spirits? We are eternal.

Or will those children receive new bodies of flesh in order to be raised by their parents? This in itself would be a reincarnation; i.e., the same spirit being put into a different body of flesh. Joseph Smith's words are also telling us that the child still needs to be raised. Why does it need to be raised in a new flesh body at all?? Doesn't that indicate that they have NOT learned the experiences they needed to learn? I think it is at this point where Tobin and I differ in our understanding. That is because during the Millenium, people will not be walking in faith anymore. Everyone will have the knowledge of who Christ is, because the mystery of God will have been done away. This alone denies the purpose of our coming here to begin with. And so, the child who dies before the age of accountability is STILL not being subjected to the same test everyone else had to go through.

Now, put all of those pieces together and try to make sense of it without throwing any of the teachings away. In other words, what does it look like? Does all of this look like it fits your current understanding?

Blessings,

jo

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Jo,

I fail to see where you apologized for plagiarism. Additionally, you never explained why you're so willing to be dishonest about your source material. Please set the record straight.

- VRDRC

[_jo1952]

Darth J isn't educating me on a single thing. He's spouting his normal non-sense. Of course where God dwells is the Celestial Kingdom and his idea that it isn't is just absurd.

Hi Tobin,

It saddens me to see how many people who claim to understand the teachings of the Church, really do not. At best, they appear to have only a milk understanding. If they continue to seek for Truth, they will receive it and be able to reconcile all things which may currently appear to be conflicting. At that time they will no longer call or treat us as fools.

Continue your efforts to share Truth; there is no shame in serving Christ.

Blessings,

jo

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Waitaminute. Oh my god. Brigham Young said, "So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain."

That's it. THAT'S IT. THAT'S where all the spirits reside, you know, inside a Celestial sphere, prior to them coming to Earth. The Sun is clearly big enough to accommodate 60,000,000,000 spirits in addition to resurrected beings.

Why couldn't I see it before?

You know why? Because Tobin and Jo weren't here to lead us to a higher understanding of Mormonism. Thanks, guys.

- VRDRC

[_Themis]

Darth J isn't educating me on a single thing. He's spouting his normal non-sense. Of course where God dwells is the Celestial Kingdom and his idea that it isn't is just absurd.

Hi Tobin,

It saddens me to see how many people who claim to understand the teachings of the Church, really do not. At best, they appear to have only a milk understanding. If they continue to seek for Truth, they will receive it and be able to reconcile all things which may currently appear to be conflicting. At that time they will no longer call or treat us as fools.

Continue your efforts to share Truth; there is no shame in serving Christ.

Blessings,

jo

I wonder why it is those who have a milk understanding are the only ones referring to church teachings on the subject to those who claim to have a more meaty understanding.