Is Mormonism Worth It?
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Is Mormonism Worth It?
I've been around here long enough to see some patterns among apologists. There are a few decent defenders of the LDS church (they don't post here, IMHO), but the ones who post here fall into a few categories:
1. Super-cafeteria Mormons: These guys redefine Mormonism so that it agrees with them and have no problem denying basic doctrine if they don't like it or can't defend it. The "Mormonism" they espouse isn't actually Mormonism but the way they see the world forced into a vaguely Mormon template. The big offender here is Tobin. I like him because he fearlessly denies LDS doctrine and then accuses those who disagree with him of not knowing the doctrines.
2. Mental gymnasts: Although closely related to the super-cafeterias, they are different enough to warrant their own category. These people pride themselves on coming up with an overly complicated, internally inconsistent explanation for Mormon doctrines that don't make sense or that defy the evidence. The archetype here is bcspace, whose crowning achievement is the brilliant Eden-in-a-bubble theory of evolution. Most people would have given up rather than adopting such a moronic theory, but not our mental gymnasts.
3. The prevaricators: These are the people who, when confronted with the truth, simply lie and wave it away. When asked to back up an obvious lie, they just make snide insults and pretend not to hear. ldsfaqs epitomizes this tendency when he tries to tell us that a church-owned business isn't part of the church.
4. The deranged. There's too many of them to list, but you know who you are.
5. The stupid: There are stupid people in all of the categories, but some merit their own recognition, such as people who present moronic syllogisms as proof of Mormonism.
Is Mormonism really worth the lengths people go to in order to defend it?
1. Super-cafeteria Mormons: These guys redefine Mormonism so that it agrees with them and have no problem denying basic doctrine if they don't like it or can't defend it. The "Mormonism" they espouse isn't actually Mormonism but the way they see the world forced into a vaguely Mormon template. The big offender here is Tobin. I like him because he fearlessly denies LDS doctrine and then accuses those who disagree with him of not knowing the doctrines.
2. Mental gymnasts: Although closely related to the super-cafeterias, they are different enough to warrant their own category. These people pride themselves on coming up with an overly complicated, internally inconsistent explanation for Mormon doctrines that don't make sense or that defy the evidence. The archetype here is bcspace, whose crowning achievement is the brilliant Eden-in-a-bubble theory of evolution. Most people would have given up rather than adopting such a moronic theory, but not our mental gymnasts.
3. The prevaricators: These are the people who, when confronted with the truth, simply lie and wave it away. When asked to back up an obvious lie, they just make snide insults and pretend not to hear. ldsfaqs epitomizes this tendency when he tries to tell us that a church-owned business isn't part of the church.
4. The deranged. There's too many of them to list, but you know who you are.
5. The stupid: There are stupid people in all of the categories, but some merit their own recognition, such as people who present moronic syllogisms as proof of Mormonism.
Is Mormonism really worth the lengths people go to in order to defend it?
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
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Re: Is Mormonism Worth It?
Some of you may think I'm just being mean but hard as I try I can't respect the people who knowingly spue nonsense and dishonesty to defend anything;least of all a religion. You might be saying that they aren't knowingly doing this but I can't see how that is possible.
I used to believe people were basically good. Then I came across FARMS.
I used to believe people were basically good. Then I came across FARMS.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
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Re: Is Mormonism Worth It?
Bob,
You are welcome to label me however you want. However, I don't think any Mormon should accept anything that isn't true simply because so-and-so said so and represents it as Mormon doctrine. If you want to call that 'Super-cafeteria Mormons', then I think all Mormons should be 'Super-cafeteria Mormons'. It would be a bit more generous if you called them open-minded, conscientious, truth-oriented Mormons instead. Mormonism should be about having a reasonable view of what they feel God tells them is true and what makes sense given a view the whole of the the gospel. And I believe God is interested in us believing and knowing the truth above all other things.
You are welcome to label me however you want. However, I don't think any Mormon should accept anything that isn't true simply because so-and-so said so and represents it as Mormon doctrine. If you want to call that 'Super-cafeteria Mormons', then I think all Mormons should be 'Super-cafeteria Mormons'. It would be a bit more generous if you called them open-minded, conscientious, truth-oriented Mormons instead. Mormonism should be about having a reasonable view of what they feel God tells them is true and what makes sense given a view the whole of the the gospel. And I believe God is interested in us believing and knowing the truth above all other things.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
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Re: Is Mormonism Worth It?
I don't think it's worth it.
After I discovered that the correlated view of Mormonism that I was fed my entire life was lacking in both honesty and details, I wasted about another 6 years trying to reconcile my "testimony" with a church which looked nothing like, nor acted anything like, its foundational documents said it should look and act like. When I raised problems I was having to the Bishop, or amongst my "friends" in Elder's Quorum, the only responses I ever got were "you're not praying hard enough," or, my personal favorite "you're sinning so the Spirit has fled you."
Did I elicit anything useful from Mormonism? No, I don't think so. In my 24 years in the church I learned how to speak in not-so-proper King James English, and that's about it. I didn't receive any sort of education on what the Scriptures actually have to say or how they came about, and I certainly didn't learn anything in the way of service to others, although it is parroted from the pulpit every weekend. We never did any service projects as youth unless it directly helped the ward, or other members. Service projects to the soup kitchen or what have you were absolutely unheard of. So what of God's commandment to help all men? I guess "all men" just really means all Mormons.
Oh, I did get my Duty to God award, back before they made the program all watered down and stupid. I guess that's a plus.
After I discovered that the correlated view of Mormonism that I was fed my entire life was lacking in both honesty and details, I wasted about another 6 years trying to reconcile my "testimony" with a church which looked nothing like, nor acted anything like, its foundational documents said it should look and act like. When I raised problems I was having to the Bishop, or amongst my "friends" in Elder's Quorum, the only responses I ever got were "you're not praying hard enough," or, my personal favorite "you're sinning so the Spirit has fled you."
Did I elicit anything useful from Mormonism? No, I don't think so. In my 24 years in the church I learned how to speak in not-so-proper King James English, and that's about it. I didn't receive any sort of education on what the Scriptures actually have to say or how they came about, and I certainly didn't learn anything in the way of service to others, although it is parroted from the pulpit every weekend. We never did any service projects as youth unless it directly helped the ward, or other members. Service projects to the soup kitchen or what have you were absolutely unheard of. So what of God's commandment to help all men? I guess "all men" just really means all Mormons.
Oh, I did get my Duty to God award, back before they made the program all watered down and stupid. I guess that's a plus.
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Re: Is Mormonism Worth It?
Tobin wrote:Bob,
You are welcome to label me however you want. However, I don't think any Mormon should accept anything that isn't true simply because so-and-so said so and represents it as Mormon doctrine. If you want to call that 'Super-cafeteria Mormons', then I think all Mormons should be 'Super-cafeteria Mormons'. It would be a bit more generous if you called them open-minded, conscientious, truth-oriented Mormons instead. Mormonism should be about having a reasonable view of what they feel God tells them is true and what makes sense given a view the whole of the the gospel. And I believe God is interested in us believing and knowing the truth above all other things.
I have tried to be generous but I have given up. What I see is dishonesty and self-deception and I can't respect either of those.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
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Re: Is Mormonism Worth It?
I strongly disagree. If someone chooses to believe in God and seeks to understand that belief as best they can, it is not up to you to decide if it is dishonest and self-deception - it is up to them decide if it is or is not. Now, you may disagree with those beliefs, but you should show the decency of respectfully disagreeing and demonstrate to them how they are mistaken through your arguments and behavior. I certainly can not see how labeling someone and belittling their beliefs will ever get you anywhere with anyone.Bob Loblaw wrote:I have tried to be generous but I have given up. What I see is dishonesty and self-deception and I can't respect either of those.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
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Re: Is Mormonism Worth It?
Tobin wrote:I strongly disagree. If someone chooses to believe in God and seeks to understand that belief as best they can, it is not up to you to decide if it is dishonest nor self-deception - it is up to them. You may disagree with those beliefs, but you should show the decency of respectfully disagreeing and demonstrate to them how they are mistaken through your arguments and behavior. I certainly can not see how labeling someone and belittling their beliefs will ever get you anywhere with anyone.
I have no problem with people who don't believe the way I do, and I'm not belittling anyone's sincere belief. I just don't have any respect for claiming to adhere to a certain religion but then going out of one's way to reject just about everything that religion teaches. That's dishonest.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
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Re: Is Mormonism Worth It?
Bob Loblaw wrote:I've been around here long enough to see some patterns among apologists. There are a few decent defenders of the LDS church (they don't post here, IMHO), but the ones who post here fall into a few categories:
Bob, which category do I fall into? My guess is:
Bob Loblaw wrote:1. Super-cafeteria Mormons: These guys redefine Mormonism so that it agrees with them and have no problem denying basic doctrine if they don't like it or can't defend it.
But I'd like to hear it out of your own mouth.
Bob Loblaw wrote:Is Mormonism really worth the lengths people go to in order to defend it?
It is worth it to believe there is a good God that controls the universe and that can answer prayer, and that belief has led me to the conclusion that that God has inspired the LDS Church.
KevinSim
Reverence the eternal.
Reverence the eternal.
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Re: Is Mormonism Worth It?
Bob Loblaw wrote:
I have tried to be generous but I have given up. What I see is dishonesty and self-deception and I can't respect either of those.
Self deception describes most of it. It is something none of us are immune to.
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Re: Is Mormonism Worth It?
KevinSim wrote:It is worth it to believe there is a good God that controls the universe and that can answer prayer, and that belief has led me to the conclusion that that God has inspired the LDS Church.
I think this is a good example of self deception.

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