Creedal Trinity misunderstood by LDS

[_Mittens]

for the sake of brevity, as it has thus been lost, the Nicene Creed is not Scripture, scriptural, nor is it Biblical Doctrine or valid Christian Doctrine.
So, as you can plainly see, the LDS Church does not misunderstand it at all.

Just like the Articles of Faith aren't scripture

teachings of Mormons not found in Book of Mormon, The Articles of Faith “ Mormon Creed” or Bible.

1. The plurality of Gods (Mormon Doctrine pp. 576, 577)
2. The baptism for the dead done in holy temples (Mormon Doctrine pp. 72,73)
3. Celestial marriage which no unworthy member or outsider can attend (Mormon Doctrine pp. 117, 118)
4. Polygamy needed to become a God (Journal of Discourse, Vol. II p. 269)
5. Blacks were cursed with a dark skin (Mormon Doctrine p. 109)
6. You can become a God if you are worthy; celestial marriage required (Mormon Doctrine p. 118)
7. We were all pre-existent spirits (Mormon Doctrine p. 589)
8. God has a body of flesh and bones (Mormon Doctrine p. 289)
9. We have a Heavenly Mother as well as a Heavenly Father (Mormon Doctrine p. 516)
10. There are three levels of heaven. To go to the highest kingdom, you must be a Mormon. Honorable persons go to the Terrestrial kingdom. The dishonest, liars, sorcerers, adulterers and whoremongers go to the Telestial kingdom. (Mormon Doctrine pp. 420, 421)
11. God and his wife achieved a celestial marriage (Celestial Marriage Manual p. 1)
12. Heavenly Father died just like Jesus (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 346)
13. God was once just like us and progressed to godhood (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 345)
14. God has a father and His Father has a Father, etc. (Mormon Doctrine p. 322)
15. Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers (Mormon Doctrine p. 192)
16. Jesus and Lucifer each had a plan to people the earth. Jesus' plan was chosen and caused Lucifer to rebel and he and the angels that followed him were cast out of heaven. (Mormon Doctrine p. 193)
17. God lives near a star called Kolob (Mormon Doctrine p. 428)
18. Temple endowments are so sacred that you must be worthy to enter (Mormon Doctrine pp. 619, 620)
19. Jesus was not able to keep his church together (History of the Church Vol. 6 pp. 408, 409)
20. In the future, you will need Joseph Smith's consent in order to enter the celestial kingdom (Journal of Discourse Vol. 7 p.289)
21. Not everything you'll need to know concerning salvation will be recorded in the Bible but there will be additional scriptures (Mormon Doctrine p. 83)"

[_LittleNipper]

for the sake of brevity, as it has thus been lost, the Nicene Creed is not Scripture, scriptural, nor is it Biblical Doctrine or valid Christian Doctrine.
So, as you can plainly see, the LDS Church does not misunderstand it at all.

Not scriptural...

Mosiah 15 from the Book of Mormon
1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

The Nicene Creed of 325 explicitly affirms the co-essential divinity of the Son, applying to him the term "consubstantial". The 381 version speaks of the Holy Spirit as worshipped and glorified with the Father and the Son. The Athanasian Creed describes in much greater detail the relationship between Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Apostles' Creed makes no explicit statements about the divinity of the Son and the Holy Spirit, but, in the view of many who use it, the doctrine is implicit in it. (Wikipedia quote)

Being baptized for the dead is non-scriptural and yet the Mormon church practices such.

[_moksha]

BillThinks4Himself at Beliefnet had some interesting thoughts on the Creedal Trinity:

The simple faith, evoked in the Gospels, is easily turned into mystical mumbo jumbo by the creeds.

I understand the position of the Trinitarians, that God must be "one" to avoid the issue of Christian polytheism. This was a fairly thorny problem during the first centuries of Christianity. If Jesus is separate from God, he is either co-equal to God or subordinate. Making Jesus co-equal to God would run the risk of tagging the faith as polytheistic. On the other hand, a subordinate view of Jesus ran a different risk, that of presenting a weaker version of the faith. If the first view drove a wedge between Christians and the Jewish community, the second ran the risk of reducing Jesus to the role of prophet, and Christians into a minority group within the Jewish community.

Trinitarianism avoids the dilemma by withdrawing into mysticism. Jesus is God but he's not God II. He's God. I've had earnest Protestants explain it to me as analogous to water in its three forms: liquid, solid and gas. According to them, when God was on Earth, he was known as Jesus. When he dwells in your heart, he's the Holy Ghost. Jesus then becomes the incarnation of God, something like a hand thrust into a pond. The fish see the hand but the hand is not separate from the person reaching into the pond.

The problem is that Trinitarianism doesn't really match the Gospels, where Jesus prays to God, hears from God and even distinguishes between himself and God in a variety of ways. The most obvious example of this is the Baptism of Jesus, where Jesus is standing in the river Jordan while God, in Heaven, proclaims him, "my beloved son, in which I am well pleased," while the Holy Ghost descends upon him. But there are others. Jesus says that blasphemy against him and his father will be forgiven, but not blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. If they're all the same, how can one not be the other? In Gethsemane, Jesus says, "Not my will but thine be done." Again, how can Jesus and God have different wills if, in fact, they're one and the same? On the cross, Jesus not only asks his father to forgive his executioners but complains, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Such a prayer is reduced to absurdity when one tries to argue that Jesus and God are the same. How does God forsake himself? Was Jesus just talking to himself on a bad day?

The Mormon conception of Father and Son, where God is the Eternal Father and Jesus is his Begotten Son, makes Jesus both subordinate to God and co-equal to him. Jesus is subordinate to God, the Father, inasmuch as he obeys the Father and gives glory to him. He is co-equal in the sense that he has overcome all things. It's a fascinating solution, one that leaves other Christians confused or unsatisfied.

.

[_subgenius]

"It's a fascinating solution, one that leaves other Christians confused or unsatisfied."
-enter Mittens

[_Mittens]

BillThinks4Himself at Beliefnet had some interesting thoughts on the Creedal Trinity:

The simple faith, evoked in the Gospels, is easily turned into mystical mumbo jumbo by the creeds.

I understand the position of the Trinitarians, that God must be "one" to avoid the issue of Christian polytheism. This was a fairly thorny problem during the first centuries of Christianity. If Jesus is separate from God, he is either co-equal to God or subordinate. Making Jesus co-equal to God would run the risk of tagging the faith as polytheistic. On the other hand, a subordinate view of Jesus ran a different risk, that of presenting a weaker version of the faith. If the first view drove a wedge between Christians and the Jewish community, the second ran the risk of reducing Jesus to the role of prophet, and Christians into a minority group within the Jewish community.

The Athanasion Creed says Jesus was equal with the Father as Jehovah God, at incarnation line 33 of the creed he became inferior

Trinitarianism avoids the dilemma by withdrawing into mysticism. Jesus is God but he's not God II. He's God. I've had earnest Protestants explain it to me as analogous to water in its three forms: liquid, solid and gas. According to them, when God was on Earth, he was known as Jesus. When he dwells in your heart, he's the Holy Ghost. Jesus then becomes the incarnation of God, something like a hand thrust into a pond. The fish see the hand but the hand is not separate from the person reaching into the pond.

You have no inkling what Trinity teaches that what OP says and you prove it

The problem is that Trinitarianism doesn't really match the Gospels, where Jesus prays to God, hears from God and even distinguishes between himself and God in a variety of ways. The most obvious example of this is the Baptism of Jesus, where Jesus is standing in the river Jordan while God, in Heaven, proclaims him, "my beloved son, in which I am well pleased," while the Holy Ghost descends upon him. But there are others. Jesus says that blasphemy against him and his father will be forgiven, but not blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. If they're all the same, how can one not be the other? In Gethsemane, Jesus says, "Not my will but thine be done." Again, how can Jesus and God have different wills if, in fact, they're one and the same? On the cross, Jesus not only asks his father to forgive his executioners but complains, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Such a prayer is reduced to absurdity when one tries to argue that Jesus and God are the same. How does God forsake himself? Was Jesus just talking to himself on a bad day?


again like OP says, you have no inkling of trinity since the Trinity says three separate and distinct persons represent the One God 1X1X1=1

The Mormon conception of Father and Son, where God is the Eternal Father and Jesus is his Begotten Son, makes Jesus both subordinate to God and co-equal to him. Jesus is subordinate to God, the Father, inasmuch as he obeys the Father and gives glory to him. He is co-equal in the sense that he has overcome all things. It's a fascinating solution, one that leaves other Christians confused or unsatisfied.

.

[_Drifting]

Being baptized for the dead is non-scriptural and yet the Mormon church practices such.

I think you will find that the believing members of the board can provide you with scriptural references for baptism on behalf of the dead.
But that aside, what was your point?

[Guest]

[The problem is that Trinitarianism doesn't really match the Gospels, where Jesus prays to God, hears from God and even distinguishes between himself and God in a variety of ways. The most obvious example of this is the Baptism of Jesus, where Jesus is standing in the river Jordan while God, in Heaven, proclaims him, "my beloved son, in which I am well pleased," while the Holy Ghost descends upon him. But there are others. Jesus says that blasphemy against him and his father will be forgiven, but not blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. If they're all the same, how can one not be the other? In Gethsemane, Jesus says, "Not my will but thine be done." Again, how can Jesus and God have different wills if, in fact, they're one and the same? On the cross, Jesus not only asks his father to forgive his executioners but complains, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Such a prayer is reduced to absurdity when one tries to argue that Jesus and God are the same. How does God forsake himself? Was Jesus just talking to himself on a bad day?


again like OP says, you have no inkling of trinity since the Trinity says three separate and distinct persons represent the One God 1X1X1=1

The Mormon conception of Father and Son, where God is the Eternal Father and Jesus is his Begotten Son, makes Jesus both subordinate to God and co-equal to him. Jesus is subordinate to God, the Father, inasmuch as he obeys the Father and gives glory to him. He is co-equal in the sense that he has overcome all things. It's a fascinating solution, one that leaves other Christians confused or unsatisfied.

The rejection of the Holy Spirit is where someone is being moved to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as his personal Savior by the influence of the Holy Spirit and rejects that pull. In other words the sin that is not forgiveable is the rejection of the Salvation message. Begotten is only a place of subjection. Christ has always existed. A triangle is not a triangle without the sum of its parts. Each part of GOD has His job as it were. Christ is the one who assumes physical form. He has the primary ability to become visible. The Holy Spirit has the primary ablilty to be everywhere/indwell. The Father has the primary ability at being the program director. The Three work together as They always have and always will. Time is on Their side --- They created it. They are GOD

[_subgenius]

[again like OP says, you have no inkling of trinity since the Trinity says three separate and distinct persons represent the One God 1X1X1=1

So, the "inkling" is that God is schizophrenic, has multiple personality disorder....got it

[_Mittens]

[again like OP says, you have no inkling of trinity since the Trinity says three separate and distinct persons represent the One God 1X1X1=1

So, the "inkling" is that God is schizophrenic, has multiple personality disorder....got it

Why does Joseph Smith Jr pre-1835 teach it ?

Joseph Smith Jt taught the Trinity till at least 1835

2 Nephi 31:
21And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Alma 11:
44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.


Mormon 7:
7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

The Testimony of Three Witnesses
And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

Doctrine and Covenants 20 :
28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

[_subgenius]

Why does Joseph Smith Jr pre-1835 teach it ?

Joseph Smith Jt taught the Trinity till at least 1835

2 Nephi 31:
21And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Alma 11:
44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.


Mormon 7:
7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

The Testimony of Three Witnesses
And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

Doctrine and Covenants 20 :
28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

not sure what your confusion is but it is obvious that there is no conflict with the LDS doctrine of the distinct individuality and perfect unity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
If i understand you correctly, you would stand by the rather temporal solution that God is composed of three persons...as is the basic definition of the Trinity...whereas the LDS definition is that there are three separate deities which unite as one God.
Your version defies the scriptures and renders God as one who speaks with Himself and pleads to Himself for relief from His own doings....got it.
LDS version recognizes the unity in the three personages and the scriptural foundations for such.
You distill God down into three people in order to resolve and perpetuate the agenda of man.
The LDS sees the unity of God formed in the scriptures....perfectly united in purpose and will

perhaps you should look into Sabellius and how the Nicene Creed "utilized" the idea of consubstantiality.....