Dendrochronology and Young Earth

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_Uncle Dale
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Re: Dendrochronology and Young Earth

Post by _Uncle Dale »

hatersinmyward wrote:...
If you have access to 20,000 y/o records.


As I recall, there are half a dozen different dating methods
besides carbon dating, and they have been applied to the
inspection of ice cores. If a scientist publishes the fact that a
certain layer in a certain ice core is 20,000 years old, that
dating generally is not dependent upon a single method. Or,
if it happens that the published data relied upon a single
method, then multiple other methods can be applied to the
same ice core, to verify the dating process.

All of this is fairly solid, established scientific dating methodology.
Somebody would have to cite massive counter-evidence, in
order to convince me that modern ice core dating is unreliable.

I don't think 2 years is going to matter all that much.


If somebody did verify the presence of a pollen grain in an
ice core that you agreed was about 20,001 years old, then
we would still have to account for the history of the flowering
plants that produced the pollen -- they are not the sort of
low-order botanical species that would have arisen overnight
on a barren earth. That is, unless we chose to accept the
creationist claims that flowering plants were created instantly.

Be sure keep a note in your wallet for future archeologists that may test human remains exposed to high level radiation in Japan while you're at it.


Yes -- external radiation can affect the reliability of some dating
methods -- but not all, in every instance. That is why application
of multiple scientific dating methods is desirable. And that is why
I chose the ice-core example here. The various chemical/atomic
dating methods can then be applied to verify the ice-strata count.
For instance, if the tiny bubbles of gases trapped in the ice core
are thus dated, that analysis can be compared and contrasted
with the examination of other ancient ice samples from elsewhere.
Generally speaking, paleoclimatologists can nowadays provide
fairly accurate guesses as to the age of a certain sample from an
ice core, by examining the atmospheric gases mixtures in the
trapped air bubbles.

On a side note; did you know red clay has been proven the most effective compound when synthesizing artificial life?... Mars is composed primarily of red sediment. Just wanted to throw that out there.


Clays are an interesting study in and of themselves, in their
inherent characteristic of preserving and spreading certain
molecular patterns, etc. But I don't think we will typically
discover fine grained clay layers around deep ocean thermal
vents and their "black smokers." That is the sort of place I'd
go looking for the most primitive extant lifeforms on the planet;
and, by deduction, the probable origin environment for some of
those very primitive/archaic living things.

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_Franktalk
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Re: Dendrochronology and Young Earth

Post by _Franktalk »

huckelberry wrote: I can see your point about subduction. It would melt fossils leaving something like the basalt I live on top of. However subduction is not the primary process of building up continents. That is why continents have both igneous and sedimentary rocks.


The real problem is that the continents appear to hold their shape over the whole history of geology. Yes they morph slightly but they should erode into sea beds and form new continents somehow. The other problem is that subduction is somewhat local to coast. Just how do mid continent lifts happen? Where does the lighter rock come from? I don't have the answers but what I read is not a correct picture. Now I am open to new data and new theories but I have not come across any I like. I like Lester King's book on Wandering Continents but he ignores the erosion problem as well. Something else is going on that we don't know about. The problem I have is that science assumes in one area uniformitarianism but in another that would conflict with those conclusions we have nothing but silence.
_Themis
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Re: Dendrochronology and Young Earth

Post by _Themis »

Franktalk wrote:
huckelberry wrote: I can see your point about subduction. It would melt fossils leaving something like the basalt I live on top of. However subduction is not the primary process of building up continents. That is why continents have both igneous and sedimentary rocks.


The real problem is that the continents appear to hold their shape over the whole history of geology. Yes they morph slightly but they should erode into sea beds and form new continents somehow. The other problem is that subduction is somewhat local to coast. Just how do mid continent lifts happen? Where does the lighter rock come from? I don't have the answers but what I read is not a correct picture. Now I am open to new data and new theories but I have not come across any I like. I like Lester King's book on Wandering Continents but he ignores the erosion problem as well. Something else is going on that we don't know about. The problem I have is that science assumes in one area uniformitarianism but in another that would conflict with those conclusions we have nothing but silence.


I will repeat what I said earlier.

Frank has no interest in learning how things happened in the past. He already has a religious conclusion that is not open for debate. Everything he thinks conflicts with it has to be dismissed and attacked. This really is the real agenda here.



It's interesting he has again ignored the topic of the thread which is about dating methods and what many people have said about them.
42
_hatersinmyward
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Re: Dendrochronology and Young Earth

Post by _hatersinmyward »

DrW wrote:This is a joke, right?
Yes.

By citing the "atom bomb effect" you are clearly referring to the slight increase in carbon-14 (and hence in the C-14 / C-12 ratio) in the biosphere as a result of modern nuclear explosions. Perhaps you are unaware that this is a very small perturbation that affects only radiocarbon dating techniques and can be compensated for by the use of new reference standards.


I'm aware.

You also seem to be unaware that radiocarbon dating is only useful for organic materials and is limited as to how far into the past it can provide accurate dating (thousands or tens of thousands of years). Therefore, radiocarbon dating would not be useful to determine the age of the Earth, which is billions of years old.


I'm aware, Just wanted to add to the debate.
_DrW
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Re: Dendrochronology and Young Earth

Post by _DrW »

hatersinmyward wrote:
DrW wrote:This is a joke, right?
Yes.

By citing the "atom bomb effect" you are clearly referring to the slight increase in carbon-14 (and hence in the C-14 / C-12 ratio) in the biosphere as a result of modern nuclear explosions. Perhaps you are unaware that this is a very small perturbation that affects only radiocarbon dating techniques and can be compensated for by the use of new reference standards.


I'm aware.

You also seem to be unaware that radiocarbon dating is only useful for organic materials and is limited as to how far into the past it can provide accurate dating (thousands or tens of thousands of years). Therefore, radiocarbon dating would not be useful to determine the age of the Earth, which is billions of years old.


I'm aware, Just wanted to add to the debate.


Does this also mean that you are not really a Theologist?
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_hatersinmyward
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Re: Dendrochronology and Young Earth

Post by _hatersinmyward »

DrW wrote:

Does this also mean that you are not really a Theologist?


Nope.
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Dendrochronology and Young Earth

Post by _Uncle Dale »

Franktalk wrote:...
Just how do mid continent lifts happen?
...


You might also want to ask, where do mid-oceanic hot-spots
come from? I happen to live on just such a geologic rupture,
and today my eyes are burning from the fumes put out by the
active volcano a few miles away.

Any serious geomorphologist will have answers for such questions.
In the case of the Hawaiian Islands, our mid-Pacific hot-spot has
remained relatively stationary for millenia, while the earth's outer
crust has moved slowly to the northwest -- producing a series
of islands, stretched out in an archipelago that points southeast --
in the direction of where the hot-spot is currently "migrating,"
thanks to continual crustal motion atop its location.

Inspection of stratification in the various islands' lavaflows
confirms that there was life present on these islands long, long
prior to the historic flows that we can document and date.

The Hawaiian Islands weren't created in an instant, to be what
they are in the current era -- nor were they created 8,000
years ago -- nor did they suddenly appear a million or two
million years ago.

I'd say that our mid-oceanic hot-spot occurred in reaction to
some celestial body's very, very strong impact upon the opposite
side of the planet, many millions of years ago.

Perhaps you'll agree -- but many people (including ignorant folks
living right here beside me on the Big Island) say Science is wrong,
and that God created the earth and these islands in six days.

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_huckelberry
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Re: Dendrochronology and Young Earth

Post by _huckelberry »

Franktalk wrote:The real problem is that the continents appear to hold their shape over the whole history of geology. Yes they morph slightly but they should erode into sea beds and form new continents somehow. The other problem is that subduction is somewhat local to coast. Just how do mid continent lifts happen? Where does the lighter rock come from? I don't have the answers but what I read is not a correct picture. Now I am open to new data and new theories but I have not come across any I like. I like Lester King's book on Wandering Continents but he ignores the erosion problem as well. Something else is going on that we don't know about. The problem I have is that science assumes in one area uniformitarianism but in another that would conflict with those conclusions we have nothing but silence.


I do not think there is any reason to think continents hold their shape, but then you add sort of so it is hard to know what you mean. Do you mean they remain rock above sea level in some sort of clump formation? I suppose they remain something like that. In that case it does not matter that ours used to end along the Idaho west border. The area I live in, Washington is a new add on along with substantial other western portions of North America.

I think it is true that not all of the processes of continent movement and building are understood. Some general ideas are. First continents are very deep and have a lot of rock which can be raised up as surface layers are removed by erosion. Second eroded material does not leave but remains near at hand for future compaction to continents. Third the earth is an enclosed fluid with a crust floating on top. Where weight presses down in one area pressure is exerted in response lifting up lighter areas.
_Franktalk
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Re: Dendrochronology and Young Earth

Post by _Franktalk »

DrW wrote:Like Franktalk, perhaps you should take a few minutes and think before you come out with this kind of nonsense on a public forum. Like Franktalk, you seem to have an uncritical willingness to believe what you read on Christian creationist websites. Regardless of your motivations or level of understanding, such a display of gullibility seems kind of embarrassing for an adult.


Would you please point me to a detailed age determination of any major land mass which uses erosion as its method and not radiometric processes. I seem to be unable to find one in my searches. I would like to be educated like you.
_EAllusion
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Re: Dendrochronology and Young Earth

Post by _EAllusion »

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