Flip Side of the Coin

[_Bob Loblaw]

I care somewhat about how Joseph Smith translated it, but my wife does have a point, so I've been putting a lot of emphasis recently on how one knows today, in today's church, that God wants us to treat the Book of Mormon as scripture, and that's because a living prophet says that God wants us to treat it as scripture.

Kind of circular logic, don't you think? You believe a living prophet tells you treat the Book of Mormon as scripture but you believe in the prophet because of the Book of Mormon.

[_Themis]

I'm still firmly committed to my belief in a good God who controls the universe, and who has the power to answer prayer. I asked God a question about the LDS Church back when I was 17, and because of the answer I got I have concluded that God chose Spencer Kimball as His spokesman back then, and has chosen Thomas Monson as His spokesman in today's world.

Self deception has worked to help people be happy and content with many world views. I can't go that route, but then I am quite happy with life and don't feel the church is some evil organization that damaged me. It does damage as well as help. Hopefully in the future it will get rid of some of the damaging things it can do to people.

[_LDSToronto]

So when the Haitians were praying for the earthquake to pass them by God:
1. Ignored them, or
2. Knew they needed the challenge?

There's a difference between controlling the universe and having all power over the universe. I don't believe in the literal omnipotence of God. Neither did Joseph Smith for that matter. God concentrates on the things that will bring about the most good for the universe, and lets everything else (like the Haitian earthquake) happen as the laws of nature direct.

Some days I wish someone would put together a balance sheet describing God's utilitarianism.

H.

[_Themis]

So, translation the Book of Mormon far less important to you now, yes?

Exactly. My wife doesn't really care how Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon; all she cares about is that the LDS Church that she, her parents, her brothers, and her sister belong to, says that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I care somewhat about how Joseph Smith translated it, but my wife does have a point, so I've been putting a lot of emphasis recently on how one knows today, in today's church, that God wants us to treat the Book of Mormon as scripture, and that's because a living prophet says that God wants us to treat it as scripture.

Your wife sounds like a feeler. The world is full of them and they are good people, but they do make choices more on feelings then on rational thought. To them these details don't matter.

[_Bob Loblaw]

Self deception has worked to help people be happy and content with many world views. I can't go that route, but then I am quite happy with life and don't feel the church is some evil organization that damaged me. It does damage as well as help. Hopefully in the future it will get rid of some of the damaging things it can do to people.

Organizations can be damaging without being evil. The church is a good example.

[Guest]

Some days I wish someone would put together a balance sheet describing God's utilitarianism.

When I was a TBM, I dealt with the problem of evil by believing that God wasn't actually responsible in any way for earthquakes, hurricanes and other natural disasters, mainly because I assumed that the balance sheet you described would not be very indicative of an all-loving God. Because of this, I tended to ignore stories of finding keys through prayer and I avoided praying for things that felt trivial to me in a universal sense (e.g., I found it OK to pray about my choice of spouse, but not about my choice of college major). I fully realized that my views did not exactly match up with what the Church teaches, but I put that on the shelf (along with so many other things).

Kevin: I am glad that Mormonism has worked well for you and your family.

[_Madison54]

Self deception has worked to help people be happy and content with many world views. I can't go that route, but then I am quite happy with life and don't feel the church is some evil organization that damaged me. It does damage as well as help. Hopefully in the future it will get rid of some of the damaging things it can do to people.

This sums up my feelings as well.

If it works for you and your family, who are we to judge?

The only pain the church causes me is the distance it's put between myself and members of my family & friends who are still TBM. But I have to remind myself that I'm the one who changed the dynamics of our relationship, not them.

I am who I am today because I grew up Mormon. I can appreciate all the good it does. However, I cannot in good conscience support it and attend anymore now that I know the full truth about its history and also information on church finances, etc., really bothers me.

You don't have to answer this, KevinSim, but....
Do you pay tithing?
I could maybe still attend if it was important to my spouse, but I just could not send the church 10% of my income.

[Guest]

Well, I gotta tell ya... I think it's great that Mormonism works for you. I truly do. I reject the truth claims of Mormonism, but I love the fact that you're happy.

Should everyone try to fit within Mormonism? No. It simply doesn't work for everyone.

That's your burden, though. If you're going to promote Mormonism then you're burden is to transform it into something that can accommodate everyone, but then by that act you force Mormonism to lose what's unique about it (which is what's happening with Correlation and Internet Mormonism).

So many people emphasize what works for them in a faith group, as a determining factor in whether or not they want to get involved in that faith group. For me it's never been what works for me; rather it's been in what faith group does God want me to be?

Furthermore, if the only thing that mattered was what worked for me, then I'd probably be somewhere else besides the LDS Church; I'd probably end up starting my own faith group; that's what would work for me.

But the LDS Church says the way to find out which faith group God wants us to be in is to ask God which faith group God wants one to be in, and have faith that God will answer that question. I asked God if S/He wanted me to be in the LDS Church back in 1976, and that's the reason I'm a devout Latter-day Saint today. It has nothing to do with what "works" for me.

[_Cicero]

Self deception has worked to help people be happy and content with many world views. I can't go that route, but then I am quite happy with life and don't feel the church is some evil organization that damaged me. It does damage as well as help. Hopefully in the future it will get rid of some of the damaging things it can do to people.

Organizations can be damaging without being evil. The church is a good example.

I think a lot of exmos fail to make this distinction, which is unfortunate since it allows apologists to paint all exmos as angry and bitter apostates. This tendency is especially evident on the RFM board.

A great example of this unfortunate tendency, and an apologist's response to it, is here (see TMB's post and Makelan's responses to it): http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24967

[_KevinSim]

The problem is that the church is a one-size-fits-all lifestyle and organization. So what makes you happy may make someone else unhappy. I believe the church damaged me personally but I can only talk about my life--not yours or anyone else's.

Bob, sorry for the damage. What did you replace the LDS Church with?