Flip Side of the Coin

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I asked God if S/He wanted me to be in the LDS Church back in 1976, and that's the reason I'm a devout Latter-day Saint today. It has nothing to do with what "works" for me.

That's odd that you'd frame God in that way.

Please describe to the board what you conceive the literally nature of God to be, and how He/She functions in relation to human beings.

- VRDRC

[_KevinSim]

Organizations can be damaging without being evil. The church is a good example.

It was the great atheist Nietzche who said, "What does not kill me, makes me stronger." Was he totally wrong? If not, then how does one tell what is purely damaging, and isn't instead something that can make one stronger if that one takes advantage of it?

Joseph Smith used different words than Nietzche did; he quoted God as saying the things that Smith thought were damaging him would give him "experience, and shall be for" his good. How do we know whether or not Smith and Nietzche are right here?

[_KevinSim]

Kevin: I am glad that Mormonism has worked well for you and your family.

Thanks, Cicero!

[Guest]

-

[_KevinSim]

The only pain the church causes me is the distance it's put between myself and members of my family & friends who are still TBM. But I have to remind myself that I'm the one who changed the dynamics of our relationship, not them.

As you seem to indicate, Madison54, members of your family who are still TBM may not really be any more responsible for the distance between you than you are yourself. There's nothing in the institution anyhow that puts a gulf between family members who believe and family members who don't. My older sister's oldest daughter left the LDS Church a year or two ago because she didn't like the LDS position on gay issues. I know for a fact that my sister hasn't given up on her. Just the other day my sister sent me an e-mail about my father that she also e-mailed to her daughter; I saw that as an opportunity and fired her off an e-mail inviting her to a family reunion we're going to hold in Roy next month. She replied saying she couldn't come, but there was no distance between her and me evident in either of those two e-mails.

I know that some people in the Church can be unreasonably harsh to people who leave the Church, and I apologize to you for them if your family members have taken that road.

You don't have to answer this, KevinSim, but....
Do you pay tithing?

Since about the middle of February we've been running about one paycheck behind. But we'll be caught up by the end of the year.

[_KevinSim]

Bob, sorry for the damage. What did you replace the LDS Church with?

Do I need to replace it? I'm happy without the church.

Well, one doesn't technically need a church to meet one's conscientious obligations to the rest of humanity (especially to future generations of humanity), but in my experience a faith group can certainly help. Parents usually have a sense of obligation to help their children have happy and productive lives; does that mean that people who don't have children have no such obligation at all? I don't think so. I think we've got an obligation to at least have some effect for good on future generations of humanity. I honestly doubt one can fill that obligation on her/his own, but I could be wrong.

The LDS Church is in a very real sense a plan for the general welfare of as many of the human race as are willing to follow its program. So maybe my question should have been, having left the LDS Church, Bob, how are you planning on working toward the general welfare of the human race?

[_Bob Loblaw]

Well, one doesn't technically need a church to meet one's conscientious obligations to the rest of humanity (especially to future generations of humanity), but in my experience a faith group can certainly help. Parents usually have a sense of obligation to help their children have happy and productive lives; does that mean that people who don't have children have no such obligation at all? I don't think so. I think we've got an obligation to at least have some effect for good on future generations of humanity. I honestly doubt one can fill that obligation on her/his own, but I could be wrong.

The LDS Church is in a very real sense a plan for the general welfare of as many of the human race as are willing to follow its program. So maybe my question should have been, having left the LDS Church, Bob, how are you planning on working toward the general welfare of the human race?

I disagree very much with the suggestion that I need organized religion--particularly one as potentially destructive as Mormonism--to better the human race. My kids and I volunteer regularly at a free health clinic and no one asks us about our religion.

[_KevinSim]

I don't believe in the prophet "because of the Book of Mormon"; I believe in the prophet because I asked God if the LDS Church is true and God told me yes.

The Book of Mormon is what told you how God answers prayers.

That's true, but the fact that the Book of Mormon told me how is not the reason that the method works. The method works due to the goodness of God, and that's totally separate from any authority the Book of Mormon might have to make true statements.

To restate that, sure, the Book of Mormon does explain what we Mormons call Moroni's Promise. But I don't believe Moroni's Promise leads us to an understanding of God's will because the Book of Mormon says so; I believe it leads us to an understanding of God's will because God is good, and God recognizes that if He doesn't honor Moroni's Promise then there will never be any way that humans can ever find out His will. Once again, that's totally separate from any authority the Book of Mormon might have.

[_KevinSim]

I'm guessing you descend through Cordelia Calista Morley and Fredrick Walter Cox.

Well, no. My ancestors were Isaac's daughter Lucy Diantha, her son Isaac Morley Allen, his daughter Elnora, her daughter Harriet Vernon, and her daughter Virginia Hurst, who was my mother.

Do you know people who descended through Cordelia? I'm tempted to jump the gun (assuming your username is significant) and conclude that you may yourself have descended through Cordelia; would that be right? If so, I guess that would mean we're distant cousins.

[_Bob Loblaw]

That's true, but the fact that the Book of Mormon told me how is not the reason that the method works. The method works due to the goodness of God, and that's totally separate from any authority the Book of Mormon might have to make true statements.

To restate that, sure, the Book of Mormon does explain what we Mormons call Moroni's Promise. But I don't believe Moroni's Promise leads us to an understanding of God's will because the Book of Mormon says so; I believe it leads us to an understanding of God's will because God is good, and God recognizes that if He doesn't honor Moroni's Promise then there will never be any way that humans can ever find out His will. Once again, that's totally separate from any authority the Book of Mormon might have.

Your understanding of God and how he operates comes from Mormonism. It all comes back to how you were taught to experience the divine. If you had grown up Methodist you wouldn't believe God gives good feelings as a testimony.