Flip Side of the Coin

[_dblagent007]

Kevin, I am glad that you have found happiness through Mormonism. Many, many others have too. In fact, I was one of those people for most of my life. I was happy living the Mormon plan. I didn't find it damaging at all. However, after studying Mormonism in depth, I realized that I just cannot believe something that is so obviously not true, no matter how much I liked it before. The principal reason I can't is because I no longer believe spiritual experiences are a reliable method for determining truth (and that a true prophet would secretly have sex with his followers wives and daughters).

[_KevinSim]

Personally I think there are huge problems with Mormonism, but not anymore than most other religions like Scientology. Still regardless of whether you find happiness within or without the Mormon Church I'm genuinely happy for you and your family for that.

Hasa Diga Eebowai, thank you for your well wishes.

I'm not a professional theologian, so I'm not really in a position to deal with all of the "huge problems with Mormonism" you referred to; instead could you tell me just what the three biggest problems are that Mormonism has?

[_KevinSim]

Not relevant.

It's completely relevant. If there is no good God who can answer individual prayer, then of course the possibility of one deceiving oneself is a real danger. On the other hand, if there is the type of God I just described, then why in the world wouldn't such a God step in, provide the one with God's answer, and save that one from self-deception?

In fact, if one can't be sure that God would step in and save that one from self-deception, what exactly can we know of for sure about God? And if we can't therefore know anything for sure about God, then why even bother with the concept of God in the first place?

[_Morley]

I'm guessing you descend through Cordelia Calista Morley and Fredrick Walter Cox.

Well, no. My ancestors were Isaac's daughter Lucy Diantha, her son Isaac Morley Allen, his daughter Elnora, her daughter Harriet Vernon, and her daughter Virginia Hurst, who was my mother.

Do you know people who descended through Cordelia? I'm tempted to jump the gun (assuming your username is significant) and conclude that you may yourself have descended through Cordelia; would that be right? If so, I guess that would mean we're distant cousins.

Indeed. Fortunately (or not), I didn't inherit the bold-and-italics emphasis gene.

My guess is that many fifth- and sixth-generation folks of LDS heritage are related. Without even going back through Ephraim and onward to Noah and Adam and Eve.

[_Themis]

Not relevant.

It's completely relevant. If there is no good God who can answer individual prayer, then of course the possibility of one deceiving oneself is a real danger. On the other hand, if there is the type of God I just described, then why in the world wouldn't such a God step in, provide the one with God's answer, and save that one from self-deception?

In fact, if one can't be sure that God would step in and save that one from self-deception, what exactly can we know of for sure about God? And if we can't therefore know anything for sure about God, then why even bother with the concept of God in the first place?

Do you not see the major problem with your posts reasoning? I suspect you may not even though I think it's quite glaring.

[_Nightlion]

Kevin, curious how you got a message or answer from God telling you Spencer Kimball was his spokesman and yet managed to live a life filled with doubt about God's actual existence? Makes me think the testimony was very subjective. It did nothing to advance you to the stage where you 'know the Lord'.

This is the sort of damages done by LDS leaders of a gospel-lite or McGospel that does not get down to the power of the gospel way down in the depths of humility like where King Benjamin was able to take his people and where every prophet who ever taught the gospel successfully in scripture got his contacts to go. Why is it Mormons refuse to go where the scriptures tell them the gifts and powers are? I really would like to know why it is they refuse. Any clues?

I know it is because LDS leaders fail to promote it and so they are basically telling people to believe it not and weaken faith and abuse the innocent who trust them. A crime of eternal consequence. Why are Mormons unconcerned? If they were molesting children could they get away with that too. Why allow them to spiritually abuse the members with lite gospel that never has the power to know God for certain and enter into where God himself will teach you. hmm?

Do you think by going out among the members with this question you will find one who will stand up to it and seek justice for so many? I doubt it seriously.

[_KevinSim]

And, like I said, the longer I'm with her the more I find myself agreeing with her. Why should those details matter?

Sure you want to go by feelings more then reason. In many cases one may think this will lead to greater happiness. I am one who thinks untrue beliefs do more harm then good in the long run. You are in a situation I believe you would find many troubles if you ever started to really doubt and were open about it with your wife and family. I can understand this and have no problem with people going the route they think will be best for them, and self deception is needed to really feel comfortable. "Remember it's not a lie if you believe it". All the best.

Oops! Somehow that line "they do make choices more on feelings then on rational thought" went completely over my head. I do think rational thought is important, even imperative. If one doesn't understand why that one believes what that one believes, then that one has nothing.

Themis, when you said, "To them these details don't matter," I thought you were referring to several criticisms of Joseph Smith over things that don't really have any bearing on whether God chose him as God's spokesman to the world.

[_KevinSim]

That's odd that you'd frame God in that way.

Please describe to the board what you conceive the literally nature of God to be, and how He/She functions in relation to human beings.

I don't pretend to have a complete understanding of the nature of God, but it looks pretty clear to me that a conception of God that doesn't include God's desire that we humans know His will, would necessitate such ignorance of the nature of God as to render the term God meaningless. If one can't know that God would answer a question that one asked God, what can one know for sure about God?

[_Cylon]

Not relevant.

It's completely relevant. If there is no good God who can answer individual prayer, then of course the possibility of one deceiving oneself is a real danger. On the other hand, if there is the type of God I just described, then why in the world wouldn't such a God step in, provide the one with God's answer, and save that one from self-deception?

In fact, if one can't be sure that God would step in and save that one from self-deception, what exactly can we know of for sure about God? And if we can't therefore know anything for sure about God, then why even bother with the concept of God in the first place?

You said it. Why indeed?

[_Drifting]

So many people emphasize what works for them in a faith group, as a determining factor in whether or not they want to get involved in that faith group. For me it's never been what works for me; rather it's been in what faith group does God want me to be?

Actually Kevin (and I mean this politely) you are tricking yourself.
Because following what you believe God wants you to do, is you doing what works for you.