Flip Side of the Coin

[_Themis]

Do you not see the major problem with your posts reasoning? I suspect you may not even though I think it's quite glaring.

Themis, spit it out! It does no good to declare there's a "major problem with" my post's reasoning and then not say what it is.

Now don't be a jerk. I said I would comment later, and was asking if you could see the problem with it. Apparently you cannot.

If there is no good God who can answer individual prayer, then of course the possibility of one deceiving oneself is a real danger.

Even if there is a good God self deception is still just as much a reality.

On the other hand, if there is the type of God I just described, then why in the world wouldn't such a God step in, provide the one with God's answer, and save that one from self-deception?

Then your answer is there is no good God as you describe since this is obviously not happening. I would think this should be very obvious to anyone willing to look around

In fact, if one can't be sure that God would step in and save that one from self-deception, what exactly can we know of for sure about God? And if we can't therefore know anything for sure about God, then why even bother with the concept of God in the first place?

Then why do you bother since you are not sure, and it's obvious God is not stepping in for the vast majority of people on the earth?

[_Drifting]

Kevin, how do you believe the $5 billion spent on the City Creek project helps to deliver this?

It reduces the risk of urban blight. Drifting, do you really believe that urban blight of downtown Salt Lake City would be beneficial to the welfare of the human race?

And it's against my policy to answer questions about handshakes needed for "entry into the Celestial Kingdom." I am of the opinion that if you have run out of other issues and therefore need to ask about them, then you really don't have much of a case at all.

A. No, City Creek at best benefits a few folk in Salt Lake. In terms of urban blight, City Creek doesn't solve it. All it does is shift it to the areas that City Creek sucks business from.
B. You stated your belief in the OP. the question about the handshakes is an attempt to see the extent of that belief. Answering yes or no does not breach the agreement not to talk about the details of the things that happen in the Temple. Do you believe handshakes are required to gain entry to the CK? Yes/No

[_Nightlion]

We're talking of two different usages of the word know. I know the Lord. That doesn't prevent me from stepping back intellectually and realizing there exist alternate explanations for everything I've experienced that don't involve the existence of any deity at all.

Maybe the best way to resolve this matter is to ask you, Nightlion, how do you know that a good deity is in control of the universe?
.

Sweet heavens man you are over fifty years old in the LDS faith and you need to defer to me to tell you how one really knows the Lord. You don't see a problem here? The only true church cannot instruct and raise up a single man to know the Lord in the true Biblical sense?

I had to scold because I am packing so much attitude of late. The greatest sin is to defy God after partaking of his power. It is therefore THAT partaking of his power, when you are truly visited of the Father's promise, (see Acts 1) and changed from your fallen state to a state of righteousness by the regeneration of Christ's power to conceive you his son or daughter. This is the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost which Jesus commanded his disciples to wait for and to continue with one accord until it came.

Are Mormons ever taught how to come unto Christ and continue with one accord until the promise of the Father is realized in the actual baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost? (see Acts 1) No!

In other worlds your prophets and apostles do not know anything about it and fail their high callings and trample the Holy One of Israel underfoot. THAT IS APOSTASY.

Apostasy of which all your own doubts and fears are the perfect reflection of.

But they own all the world sufficient for their needs. What ever they take to heart they can do it. Money is no obstacle for the new Bitch of Babylon which the LDS Church has become. And which it cannot repent of, worlds without end it is everlastingly too late. The Lord has moved on and left them to their self.

[_Tobin]

Hi Kevin,

Thank you for sharing what you have in this thread about your life. I appreciate it very much and wish you all the best in your life. I have taken a different approach to Mormonism, but I, as do you, believe in the goodness of God and that we all perceive that God somewhat differently. I have enjoyed your posts on this forum as well.

Tobin

[_RockSlider]

You don't see a problem here? The only true church cannot instruct and raise up a single man to know the Lord in the true Biblical sense?

Chuckling to self over this one ... that nightlion is a wild one calling from the wilderness for sure.

[_cafe crema]

Kevin, how do you believe the $5 billion spent on the City Creek project helps to deliver this?

It reduces the risk of urban blight. Drifting, do you really believe that urban blight of downtown Salt Lake City would be beneficial to the welfare of the human race?

Is a 3B mall enough? Do you know with certainty that that the mall is going to still be around in, say, a hundred years? In a thousand years, or ten thousand will the mall or even Salt Lake City still be there? How is the reduction of the "risk" of urban blight in downtown Salt Lake City beneficial the the welfare of the whole human race? Seems to me 3B could have gone a lot farther in benefiting the whole human race in hundreds of other ways. Why should a mall to fight an imagined urban blight be a better thing than a free health care clinic to cure the actual diseases and relieve the sufferings of real people.

[_KevinSim]

This is why people like your wife have no interest in the details that may show their beliefs incorrect.

My reaction to this is that, in my wife's point of view, those details don't show her beliefs are incorrect.

I am referring to things that have a bearing on that question, although we may have a different take on what does have a bearing here.

Exactly.

[_KevinSim]

I think you will find that most don't want to kill themselves.

And yet many of them do kill themselves, you say. Why do they kill themselves? Like I said, if I found out I was gay I wouldn't kill myself. Why do those large numbers of gay Mormons kill themselves?

[_Drifting]

I think you will find that most don't want to kill themselves.

And yet many of them do kill themselves, you say. Why do they kill themselves? Like I said, if I found out I was gay I wouldn't kill
myself. Why do those large numbers of gay Mormons kill themselves?

How would you 'find out' you were gay?
(The Church has made it clear that gayness is a lifestyle choice)
That would be like 'finding out' you were driving.

[_KevinSim]

Sure, if you start with the decision that you're going to believe in God regardless, then that methodology makes sense.

I do start with the decision that I'm "going to believe in God regardless."

I just think your previous question was far more relevant than you give it credit for. Why bother with the concept of God in the first place? And if you truly believe there is no answer to that question, how in the world can you base your life around it to the extent the church expects you to?

We're talking about two vastly different things here. One is to realize that a belief in God is meaningless without some way to contact that God. The second is to not believe in God in the first place. The mentioned question pointed me to the first realization.

Nobody has a conscientious obligation to believe in God; it is totally possible that someone with a conscience can have no belief a deity of any kind exists.

But I have for a long time believed that each of us has a conscientious obligation to work (at least to some degree) toward the permanent preservation of some good things. For a conscientious atheist, that means the job falls squarely on her/his shoulders. I consider that task beyond me. For me, I need a deity to help me share the burden. It is much easier for me to do my share of the job, all on the assumption that God (and other conscientious believers) will make up for the portions of that job that I cannot at this time do.

And if you truly believe there is no answer to that question, how in the world can you base your life around it to the extent the church expects you to?

All the lack of an answer to that question does is point me to the conclusion that God has to be directly contactable. God has to be aware that for us to know anything about Her/Him we have to be able to contact Her/Him, and therefore will make it possible for us to directly contact Her/Him.