Flip Side of the Coin

[_KevinSim]

What if the living prophets in the LDS Church are proxy Satans telling the people to 'believe it not' concerning the finer points of doctrine that deal with the realization of the power of the gospel?

I am fully confident that if the "living prophets in the LDS Church" really were "proxy Satans," God would have told me so when I asked Him if the LDS Church was true back in 1976. The answer that I got was that the LDS Church is true, and that's why I'm a Latter-day Saint today.

[_Cylon]

Sure, if you start with the decision that you're going to believe in God regardless, then that methodology makes sense.

I do start with the decision that I'm "going to believe in God regardless."

That's fine, I guess, but it means you're not actually seeking for truth (at least on this subject), because you've already made up your mind.

And if you truly believe there is no answer to that question, how in the world can you base your life around it to the extent the church expects you to?

All the lack of an answer to that question does is point me to the conclusion that God has to be directly contactable. God has to be aware that for us to know anything about Her/Him we have to be able to contact Her/Him, and therefore will make it possible for us to directly contact Her/Him.

Either you're not making any sense, or I'm just completely misunderstanding what you're trying to say here, because recognizing that there's no way to truly know if God exists does not logically lead to a conclusion that God is directly contactable by humans. If there is any connection at all there you've left out a ton of steps.

But, I do sincerely appreciate your statement that one can have a conscience without a belief in deity. Many believers just cannot comprehend that.

[_RockSlider]

I am fully confident that if the "living prophets in the LDS Church" really were "proxy Satans," God would have told me so when I asked Him if the LDS Church was true back in 1976. The answer that I got was that the LDS Church is true, and that's why I'm a Latter-day Saint today.

Kevin, that was 36 years ago, maybe they became proxy satans since then???

[_KevinSim]

Now don't be a jerk. I said I would comment later, and was asking if you could see the problem with it. Apparently you cannot.

I apologize for my impatience. I had no good reason to rush you. But you are right; I cannot see the problem with what I said.

Even if there is a good God self deception is still just as much a reality.

If the one asking God a foundational question is really willing to base the whole rest of that one's life on whatever answer God might provide, then why is self deception as high a possibility as you make it out to be? Do you think God wants that one to stay in the dark? If not, why can't that one count on God answering that one's question?

Then your answer is there is no good God as you describe since this is obviously not happening. I would think this should be very obvious to anyone willing to look around

Themis, why do you think it is so obvious that "this" is "not happening"?

Then why do you bother since you are not sure, and it's obvious God is not stepping in for the vast majority of people on the earth?

I am sure; I'm completely convinced that there is a good God in control of the universe, and that He does reveal His will to those people who ask Him such questions.

[_KevinSim]

A. No, City Creek at best benefits a few folk in Salt Lake. In terms of urban blight, City Creek doesn't solve it. All it does is shift it to the areas that City Creek sucks business from.

Drifting, you haven't convinced me that City Creek won't go a long ways toward preventing urban blight, nor have you convinced me that City Creek will shift urban blight "to the areas that City Creek sucks business from."

B. You stated your belief in the OP. the question about the handshakes is an attempt to see the extent of that belief. Answering yes or no does not breach the agreement not to talk about the details of the things that happen in the Temple.

Nonetheless it comes close enough to talking about those details that I refuse to give you an answer.

Do you believe handshakes are required to gain entry to the CK? Yes/No

No comment.

[_KevinSim]

Sweet heavens man you are over fifty years old in the LDS faith and you need to defer to me to tell you how one really knows the Lord. You don't see a problem here? The only true church cannot instruct and raise up a single man to know the Lord in the true Biblical sense?

Nightlion, we're mixing up usages of the word know again. I know the Lord. I talk with Him every day. What I asked was how you know that God exists. I asked how you know that the things you experience in your life can't be adequately explained in the absence of any deity at all in the universe.

[_KevinSim]

Hi Kevin,

Thank you for sharing what you have in this thread about your life. I appreciate it very much and wish you all the best in your life. I have taken a different approach to Mormonism, but I, as do you, believe in the goodness of God and that we all perceive that God somewhat differently. I have enjoyed your posts on this forum as well.

Thanks, Tobin!

[_KevinSim]

Is a 3B mall enough? Do you know with certainty that that the mall is going to still be around in, say, a hundred years? In a thousand years, or ten thousand will the mall or even Salt Lake City still be there? How is the reduction of the "risk" of urban blight in downtown Salt Lake City beneficial the the welfare of the whole human race? Seems to me 3B could have gone a lot farther in benefiting the whole human race in hundreds of other ways. Why should a mall to fight an imagined urban blight be a better thing than a free health care clinic to cure the actual diseases and relieve the sufferings of real people.

café Crema, everything I do in my life pivots on the assumption that the LDS God has a plan that will span the eternities.

If you think your own personal plan would accomplish more long-range good than the LDS God's plan would, then by all means, usurp that God's position and put your plan in its place. Knock yourself out, and build as many free health care clinics as you'd like. If you succeed, then you will have proven your point. But if in ten thousand years there's no trace of your efforts, and yet the LDS Church is still alive and well (although in 10,000 years City Creek will probably not), then I certainly won't be surprised.

[_RockSlider]

everything I do in my life pivots on the assumption that the LDS God has a plan that will span the eternities.

You use unusual titles for your God (i.e. good God, LDS God etc.). I assume this means there are other Gods that are not LDS and/or good?

[_KevinSim]

How would you 'find out' you were gay?
(The Church has made it clear that gayness is a lifestyle choice)
That would be like 'finding out' you were driving.

Drifting, how do you come to the conclusion that the Church has "made it clear that gayness is a lifestyle choice"? I don't usually put a lot of emphasis on what Boyd Packer has to say, but he himself said at one point that Church leaders (like the Quorum of the Twelve) frankly don't know the reasons why people turn out gay. That hardly sounds like it's simply "a lifestyle choice."

My guess is that I would find out I was gay by realizing I was more sexually attracted to men than I am sexually attracted to my wife. Hopefully I would have found that out before I got married!