liz3564 wrote:I don't know that I am 100% sure what you are talking about, Palerobber. Are you referring to the gay marriage proposition, or something else?
KevinSim wrote:Look, Palerobber, in the OP I came out and stated that I have Asperger Syndrome. One good description of AS is a lack of common sense. So what might be abundantly clear to you is not abundantly clear to me.
KevinSim wrote:I have indicated that I will believe in the existence of God, regardless of any evidence.
Drifting wrote:KevinSim wrote:I have indicated that I will believe in the existence of God, regardless of any evidence.
This statement really makes dialogue pointless.
Tobin wrote:Drifting wrote:
This statement really makes dialogue pointless.
Drifting, many of us on this side feel this way. There is simply no evidence you can provide that will ever make us disbelieve in God. We are happy to discuss the topic with you, but if you think you are going to convince us to disbelieve in God - you are deluding yourself.
Themis wrote:LOL I see the qualifiers coming out.
Themis wrote:I think it's obvious God is not stopping people from self deception. People are asking God questions all the time yet getting all kinds of different answers. How many say they never got an answer, or that they did but know see it as their own body providing what they thought or were taught to believe was the HG communicating with them.
Themis wrote:YOU have already admitted here as well you are not sure at all but choose to believe.
Themis wrote:I am sure the same could be said of JW, Scientology, Hinduism, Wicca, etc. Some fo them are much more sure then you are, so why is it you are not the one deceiving yourself given that you admit you don't know and admit you have chosen to believe regardless of any evidence.
KevinSim wrote: To be honest I have had some times when I've doubted God's existence (and still do to some degree), but I've never let a day end without letting God know that I've committed to believe in Him no matter what happens in the world, and there's nothing that can shake me from that commitment.
Madison54 wrote:The problem here is that none of them actually speak to God (even by their own admission). We even have past prophets who admit they had never spoken to or seen God and had never received a revelation.
I understand what you are stating because I used to try to hold on like you are.....but these men do not speak to God (other than in prayers just like you and I can).
KevinSim wrote:Madison54 wrote:The problem here is that none of them actually speak to God (even by their own admission). We even have past prophets who admit they had never spoken to or seen God and had never received a revelation.
I understand what you are stating because I used to try to hold on like you are.....but these men do not speak to God (other than in prayers just like you and I can).
They speak to God. I've heard descriptions of the June 1978 priesthood revelation, and how it was received by Spencer Kimball, his counselors, and the Quorum of the Twelve. They spoke to God and felt the Holy Spirit in response. Sure, they were speaking in prayers "just like you and I can," but they were the people chosen by God to receive revelations like the one they received in June 1978, and they did receive that revelation, and I support them in the role they had in bringing forth that revelation. They did it in 1978, and I'm fully convinced a group of men with the same authority (though a somewhat different makeup) can receive similar revelations in today's world.
They may have never seen God face to face or heard, with their ears, God speak a single word to them, but that doesn't make a lick of difference as far as I'm concerned.
Elder Le Grand Richards, from an interview by Wesley Walters and Chris Vlachos on August 16, 1978, Church Office Building, Salt Lake City:
Walters: On this revelation, of the priesthood to the Negro, I've heard all kinds of stories: I've heard that Christ appeared to the apostles; I've heard that Joseph Smith appeared; and then I heard another story that Spencer Kimball had had a concern about this for some time, and simply shared it with the apostles, and they decided that this was the right time to move in that direction. Are any of those stories true, or are they all?
Richards: Well, the last one is pretty true, and I might tell you what provoked it in a way. Down in Brazil, there is so much Negro blood in the population there that it is hard to get leaders that don't have negro blood in them. We just built a temple down there. It's going to be dedicated in October. All those people with Negro blood in them have been raising money to build that temple. If we don't change, then they can't even use it. Well, Brother Kimball worried about it, and he prayed a lot about it. He asked each one of us of the twelve if we would pray--and we did--that the Lord would give him the inspiration to know what the will of the Lord was. Then he invited each one of us in his office--individually, because you know when you are in a group, you can't always express everything that's in your heart. You're part of the group, see--so he interviewed each one of us, personally to see how we felt about it, and he asked us to pray about it. Then he asked each one of us to hand in all the references we had, for, or against that proposal. See, he was thinking favorably toward giving the colored people the priesthood. Then we had a meeting where we meet every week in the temple, and we discussed it as a group circle. and then held another prayer circle after the close of that meeting, and he (President Kimball) lead in the prayer; praying that the Lord would give us the inspiration that we needed to do the thing that would be pleasing to Him and for the blessing of His children.
And then the next Thursday--we meet every Thursday--the presidency came with this little document written out to make the announcement--to see how we'd feel about it--and present it in written form. Well, some of the members of the Twelve suggested a few changes in the announcement, and then in our meeting there we all voted in favor of it--the Twelve and the first Presidency. One member of the Twelve, Mark Peterson, was down in South America, but Brother Benson, our president, had arranged to know where he could be reached by phone, and right while we were in that meeting in the temple, Brother Kimball talked with Brother Peterson, and read him the article, and he (Peterson) approved of it.
Walters: There wasn't a special document as a "revelation", that he had wrote down?
Richards: We discussed it in our meeting. What else should we say besides that announcement? And we decided that that was sufficient; that no more needed to be said.
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We were told, by visiting General Authorities and others from the Church Office Building, that it was not a revelation, but a "negative revelation."
That is, the First Presidency and the Twelve decided to tell the Lord that they were going to change the policy regarding blacks and the LDS priesthood "unless He gave them a sign to the contrary."In the absence of any sign, they changed the policy.
No one officially coming over from SLC to the MTC at the time denied this story. It was later that I heard the word "revelation" actually used in conjunction with it. But Elder Le Grand Richard's statements in his interview with Chris Vlachos and Wesley P. Walters supports this version of the events.
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