Flip Side of the Coin

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_Themis
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Re: Flip Side of the Coin

Post by _Themis »

Tobin wrote:
You have evidence there is no God? Fascinating.


For the LDS God yes.
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_Themis
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Re: Flip Side of the Coin

Post by _Themis »

Elphaba wrote:In my case, I was left without a reply for over thirty-five years. No reply as a little child, fasting and praying three days a week, begging god for my daddy to stop hurting us, believing with all my heart that god would answer my prayer. As a teenager, still fasting and praying three days a week, begging god for my dad to stop raping me, unsure but desperately hoping God would answer. As a twenty-year-old woman, thinking that my childlike faith had been naïve, that I'd somehow done it wrong, and so begging to know how to ask god to understand faith the right way, and to know what he wanted me to do. As a twenty-five-year old, studying and praying, reading everything I could get my hands on about the Book of Mormon, the Bible, the D&C, begging to know if the Church was really true, feeling for the first time in my life like I understood what it meant, and promising to commit to him, and to the Church, for the rest of my life. As a thirty-year-old, thinking the lack of any sign whatsoever was my fault because I was "begging" for things, and therefore promising God to stop, and to submit to his will, if only he would let me know what that was. Finally, as a thirty-five year old, broken and in agony, begging and begging and begging. For one sign. One feeling. One comfort. One reassurance. One anything.

Nothing. Not once. Ever.

And that's my fault?


One of the more negative consequences of a religion promoting belief in a non-existent God. Not everyone is able to get their body to produce an internal experience they can interpret as God talking to them.
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_just me
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Re: Flip Side of the Coin

Post by _just me »

KevinSim wrote:
Bob Loblaw wrote:Organizations can be damaging without being evil. The church is a good example.

It was the great atheist Nietzche who said, "What does not kill me, makes me stronger." Was he totally wrong? If not, then how does one tell what is purely damaging, and isn't instead something that can make one stronger if that one takes advantage of it?

Joseph Smith used different words than Nietzche did; he quoted God as saying the things that Smith thought were damaging him would give him "experience, and shall be for" his good. How do we know whether or not Smith and Nietzche are right here?


There are many things that can happen to us that don't kill us and make us weaker. The early days of starvation, for example. You aren't dead, but you certainly are not stronger.
Poverty. Rape. Torture. Domestic violence. Born addicted to drugs.

How dare anyone say that those experiences are to make you stronger or for your good!

While "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" makes an enjoyable song, it just isn't true in many, many cases.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_just me
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Re: Flip Side of the Coin

Post by _just me »

KevinSim wrote:how are you planning on working toward the general welfare of the human race?


Kevin. I would like to see you answer your own question.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_Hades
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Re: Flip Side of the Coin

Post by _Hades »

KevinSim wrote:how are you planning on working toward the general welfare of the human race?

"Let's go shopping!"
I'm the apostate your bishop warned you about.
_KevinSim
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Re: Flip Side of the Coin

Post by _KevinSim »

Drifting wrote:This statement really makes dialogue pointless.

Drifting, why do you feel this way? We can certainly talk about what my reasons are why I believe in the existence of God (regardless of any evidence). I don't see how my statement "makes dialogue pointless" like you say it does.
KevinSim

Reverence the eternal.
_KevinSim
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Re: Flip Side of the Coin

Post by _KevinSim »

Elphaba wrote:Would you please clarify something for me? Are you saying everyone who asks the LDS god whether or not the LDS Church is true, will get the same answer you did?

No, I'm not saying that at all. God can give anyone who asks any answer at all. It would certainly be more convenient for me if God gave the same answer to everyone, but I'm not going to tell God what S/He can and cannot say.
KevinSim

Reverence the eternal.
_KevinSim
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Re: Flip Side of the Coin

Post by _KevinSim »

RockSlider wrote:There was an innocent, pure and unquestioning faith aspect to TAO's posting. I always wrote it off to his youth and inexperience.

Perhaps this appearance of pure/innocent faith that I see in Kevin has something to do with the Asperger Syndrome?

Either way, I’m sorry for the troll comment … your pure and unquestioning faith, at age 52, based on an experience from 36 years ago, just took me by surprise.

RockSlider, I had never associated purity and innocence (assuming I actually have those two characteristics) with Asperger Syndrome, but now that you bring it up you might have a point.
KevinSim

Reverence the eternal.
_Chap
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Re: Flip Side of the Coin

Post by _Chap »

KevinSim wrote:
Elphaba wrote:Would you please clarify something for me? Are you saying everyone who asks the LDS god whether or not the LDS Church is true, will get the same answer you did?

No, I'm not saying that at all. God can give anyone who asks any answer at all. It would certainly be more convenient for me if God gave the same answer to everyone, but I'm not going to tell God what S/He can and cannot say.


Does this deity have any commitment to telling the truth to people who trust him, and ask for his guidance on important matters concerning their eternal destiny, I wonder?

If not, he is ... well, not very nice, shall we say?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_KevinSim
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Re: Flip Side of the Coin

Post by _KevinSim »

Drifting wrote:Actually...the SWK priesthood ban thing was related as SWK telling God that he had decided to repeal the ban and that if God didn't want that to happen He should give SWK a sign. I guess God remained mute and so SWK figured that meant God agreed.

The LeGrand Richards interview and the mentioned message from "visiting General Authorities" don't mesh at all. Richards didn't say a thing about a "negative revelation" or about apostles being told that in "absence of any sign" they were going to change the policy. Richards spoke of each apostle praying that the Lord would give Kimball "the inspiration to know what the will of the Lord was," not what the will of the Lord wasn't, so that they could simply repeal the priesthood ban, like the General Authorities paragraph indicated. I'm also influenced by Gordon Hinckley's comments in 1988 that there was a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit in 1978. I think Richards' and Hinckley's comments together make it very unlikely that the process was just, we'll change it unless God tells us not to.
KevinSim

Reverence the eternal.
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