I HAVE THE POWER!

[Guest]

Someone turned someone to salt for looking back at a city. Someone killed many soldiers by drowning them in the sea. And someone killed a couple for not paying tithing. I wonder who that someone was?

Dear Why Me,

I don't think Lot's wife was turned into a female-shaped block of salt like some people believe. She was lagging behind while fire and brimstone were being unloaded upon Sodom and Gomorrah and surrounding areas. By turning back to look, she was indicating that in her heart she was not prepared to leave the city which had been consumed in sinful ways. The men even wanted Lot to turn over the two angels so that they could have their way with the angels. If Lot's wife had not straggled behind, she would have been fine - she had been warned; it was her choice. But she is NOT lost!

The soldiers killed in the sea would have caught up with the Israelites and massacred them. But they are NOT lost!

Peter used his power and authority to kill Ananias and his wife. Peter, in his early apostolic days was a passionate hothead who made mistakes. This was yet another mistake he made. But Ananias and his wife are NOT lost! Peter, even though he made some big mistakes, is NOT lost!

Nevertheless, I understand that you have a great deal of trouble trying to identify with a God whom you see as uncaring, a murderer, etc. However, it is in not understanding His purposes and methods which have been established wherein you have your problems reconciling with such a God. He is not the monster you think He is. In fact, once you can see and hear; and thus, understand, you will find that God is more than merciful. The tale does not end for any of the spirits who were in the bodies of the people destroyed. They, too, will be saved. Regardless of how we meet our physical death in this life, we, too will be saved.

It is good that you care so much for all of mankind. God knows this about your sweet spirit. Believe it or not, you are still on your journey to return to Him. He loves all of us equally. We are ALL going to make it. Mercy will NOT rob Justice. The Atonement allows us to return to Father. One does not cancel out the other. We will make it regardless of whoever tries to take away our free agency; because our free agency will be what gets us back into God's presence where we will become One with Him again. We will WANT to be there with Him; and we will do whatever we need to in order to do His will - because we will have full comprehension of His love for ALL, as well as our love for Him.

Blessings,

jo

[_jo1952]

Perhaps God doesn't see death as such a bad thing?

Hi Harmony,

Actually, the physical death of a body serves a purpose; but I do not believe it is for the purpose of finality which most people view it as. God is concerned with our spirit. We are His spirit children; and He loves us. Physical death(s) are the means by which our spirit can finally be born OF the Spirit---be fully awakened and progress to perfection; at which time we become One with the Father and with the Son.

It is mankind who views physical death as a bad thing.....until such time as we are awakened enough to see HOW it is that God has provided the way for us to become perfect- even as Christ commanded us to be perfect.

Blessings,

jo

[_jo1952]

I think this is an interesting discussion because these two stories seem to be meant to be compared, and yet the straightforward comparison leads to absurd results.

Consiglieri,

I agree that these two stories are meant to be compared. No story in any Holy Canon is there accidentally (regardless of whether there are translation errors or not). Indeed, a straightforward comparison does lead to absurd results. But you knew that already. This is the very reason you started this thread; i.e., to make the readers think -- even to think outside of the box. I think this is a good thing!!!

Zeezrom has brought up the idea that Ammon used God's power to save the flocks because that was going to lay the foundation for thousands of Lamanite conversions, whereas having Alma save the burning women and children would not have done so. This is a common interpretation in the church, but it makes God sound ruthlessly mercenary. But then, maybe that is the point.

Using a straightforward method certainly does make God look ruthlessly mercenary. However, I would argue that this was not the point.

It is a strange story because, if the Book of Mormon is fictional, the author could have switched the story with the stroke of a pen in order to have God intervene to miraculously save the women and children in Ammonihah from the flames.

And yet the story is told the way it is, in spite of the fact that it makes God look weak and ineffectual, and in spite of the fact that three chapters later God will use his power in another missionary to save some animals.

As I have noted before, making it even even worse is the fact that God is going to release Alma and Amulek from prison by his power in a few short days after the holocaust where God did not intervene.

I believe that when we look at any story told in Canon, we should also remember the teachings taught by the Prophets, by Jesus, by the ancient Apostles, by Joseph Smith, etc. If a story leads us to an absurd result, then I don't think we are seeing everything that is being taught in the story.

If I were to look at the Book of Mormon as an actual historical text, I would suggest that the story of the burning of the Ammonihahite women and children really did happen and God did not intervene. This is because the story is difficult. It does not redound to the glory of God, nor of Alma or Amulek. It is a huge letdown, in fact.

Actually, I think your comments make for a good argument that the Book of Mormon is as legitimate as the Bible. With that said, what is left is the need to address the issues that mankind has with God in general; whether they are atheists, agnostics, believers in God, believers in Christ, non-believers in Christ, and regardless of which world religion they may or may not hang their hat on.

In order to provide an excuse for God's inaction, a speech is created for Alma and Amulek where Amulek says what anybody would say in his place, and Alma serves as an apologist for God's inaction, giving an excuse that, though lame, is the best the author can do under the circumstances.

In other words, if the Book of Mormon were any ordinary ancient text, I think a reasonable argument could be made that the incident of the holocaust was historical and the conversation between Alma and Amulek while it is happening fictional.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

If anyone is truly interested in my comments which I would be happy to share, just let me know.

Blessings!

jo

[_Tobin]

If anyone is truly interested in my comments which I would be happy to share, just let me know.

Hi jo,

Thank you for your comments. I always find them interesting at least.

I really don't think good is going to win every battle against evil nor should that be the expectation. Those that are evil have many advantages over those that are good. They can lie, pervert thet truth, use violence, murder, torture, and so on to achieve their goals, and basically are devoid of rules on how they behave and respond. Those that are good must often stand on principle and often do so alone, are persecuted for their beliefs (this often occurs in this forum as well), and must simply state the truth without being able to resort to the tactics the evil employ. These disadvantages often lead to good seemingly being overcome, but ultimately the war with evil will be won. God exists. God has triumphed over death and hell. And in the end the truth and good will overcome all - despite losing many of the battles. We can only do our best in this fight, and if we are overcome - rely on the Lord, his grace, and his justice to do the rest.

[_jo1952]

Hi jo,

Thank you for your comments. I always find them interesting at least.

Hi Tobin,

Thank you. I always find your comments interesting as well! How I see you is as a spirit who is truly seeking Truth. I believe many on this site are seeking Truth. There is something which helps to distinguish where you are in your journey; that is, in your seeking for Truth, you are not afraid to find it. People are even afraid to open their hearts and minds because they are afraid that what they may hear could be coming from a demonic spirit. This is where we must have faith; and where learning to discern the Holy Spirit or ministering Angels (who are ALWAYS speaking to us) . by the way, ministering Angels do not necessarily exist only in the Spiritual Realm. While we are in our physical body, God uses us as ministering Angels, if we will just listen; and even if we will seek for opportunitities to be of service to our fellow man. These opportunities can appear at any time, under any circumstances. But if we are not actively seeking to serve God, we can easily miss them.

When Jesus taught us to give up everything and follow Him, He was not just speaking of worldly goods. More importantly than hanging onto worldly treasures, He is speaking of us giving up all of our ideas about who we think He is AND who we think we are. In order for us to be born of the Spirit, we need to know who we are as spirits; how WE fit into the big picture. Yet this part of our journey is still in the infant stage. Because we are born with the veil of forgetfulness, we only have the world around us which we use to define ourselves. We even allow other men to define us. In order to TRULY follow Jesus, we need to let go of what the world has taught us; not just the things in the world. Even then, we need to realize that everything that IS in the world is patterned after what already exists in the Spiritual Realm. Boy can this be confusing sometimes!! Mostly, this can be very frightening; most resist even thinking about this aspect. It is much easier for them to give up the physical things of this world; but they hang on to their "self" for dear life (or what they perceive is their self/life). Thus, they are not able to see any other aspect of what Jesus was teaching in this lesson.

You have heard Jesus' teaching wherein He has promised that the Holy Spirit (the Comforter) will bring to our remembrance everything Christ taught us. Now, if in this current life, we have not yet heard of Christ, then what has He taught which the Holy Spirit can bring to our remembrance? Let us go beyond the milk teaching which the Church has taught us about our pre-mortal experience. Let us take this another step. The Plan of Salvation requires that our spirit learn all that it can; which includes our spirit being born of the Spirit. It is in the very condition of being in a physical body where our spirit must be born again of the Spirit. Therefore, to consider that the Holy Spirit is merely bringing to our remembrance what we knew in the Spiritual Realm is frought with error. What has been accomplished in the Plan of Salvation, if all that is necessary is for us to remember what we already knew in the Spiritual Realm? No - it is much more than this.

I believe that Jesus' teaching that the Holy Spirit will bring to remembrance what He taught us before does NOT incorporate what we knew in the pre-existence. This would frustrate the very purpose of the Plan of Salvation. I have a theory, which I believe is true, even though I may not have everything correctly figured out yet. I believe that as we go through our various incarnations (mortal probations---plural; not singular) that to whatever amount of Truth we attained in a previous incarnation is what makes up what the Holy Spirit brings us to remembrance in our current incarnation; as it is in the body of flesh that our spirit MUST learn. I think this also helps to explain why some of us are quicker to accept Christ when we learn of Him in our current probation. We are drawn to the Truth we recognize as having known in a previous probation. Thus, we are able to progress even that much more in this probation. And so it will continue until All Truth has been revealed to us. This also helps us understand how it is that some seem more ready to have more Truth revealed to them, while others are not able to understand much Truth at all. Thus the differences in comprehension; in interpretations; etc. The "few there be that find it" exist in each probation. It will continue this way until ALL have found it. If not in this world, then in another. Worlds are without number.

I really don't think good is going to win every battle against evil nor should that be the expectation. Those that are evil have many advantages over those that are good. They can lie, pervert thet truth, use violence, murder, torture, and so on to achieve their goals, and basically are devoid of rules on how they behave and respond. Those that are good must often stand on principle and often do so alone, are persecuted for their beliefs (this often occurs in this forum as well), and must simply state the truth without being able to resort to the tactics the evil employ. These disadvantages often lead to good seemingly being overcome, but ultimately the war with evil will be won. God exists. God has triumphed over death and hell. And in the end the truth and good will overcome all - despite losing many of the battles. We can only do our best in this fight, and if we are overcome - rely on the Lord, his grace, and his justice to do the rest.

Indeed! I believe there is a balance of both Good and Evil being kept on the earth; even though I also think that there is a polarization taking place as we get nearer to the end times. At the very same time, we each must personally experience everything that the physical earth will experience as it is transformed from mortallity to immortallity. In other words, everything that is described in the Book of Revelation, is also something each of us will also experience in our journey. We each will become every one of the seven churches as our journey progresses. We will each experience our own version of the plagues and the trials - even the desire to die when we are not allowed to die; either due to our own illnesses, or due to the illnesses or loss of loved ones which causes us such great pain.

We will all experience suffering in hell (but not the "hell" described by orthodox beliefs); we will even experience our own part in the lake of fire and brimstone. We will all be one of those who is not able to enter the New Jerusalem; we will be one of those on the outside of the City because we will be among those who make up the liars, the thieves, the adulterers, etc., who, until we have progressed beyond those things, we are then able to enter the City. Our spirits will have acquired ALL Truth--our spirit will have been born of the Spirit; and we will see the Kingdom of God which has been there all along. At that time, we will each be one of those who can enter and leave the City at will because we will each have a kingdom or principality over which we will rule as part of our being co-heirs with Christ. As it is taught, the last thing which is overcome is death! See what this looks like!! This also includes our own physcial death(s) of bodies which our spirits inhabit as we progress until All Truth has been revealed to our spirit. Physical death is overcome. And because we are able to see and enter the Kingdom of God and be in God's presence once again, spiritual death has been over come. When death is overcome, we will go no more out; In other words, we will not continue to go out to be placed in physical bodies. The only exception at this point would be if we CHOOSE to go out again - only now it would be for the purpose of helping others who have not yet entered into (or become a part of) exaltation.

We will even experience moments in our spirit's progression when Satan will be bound from us - when he will not have power over us. We will also then experience when he is unleashed and will make his final efforts to cause us to stray. We will recognize this because we will be tormented and persecuted for our belief in Christ. I think we will even become a son of perdition - though, depending on whether we spilled innocent blood; or whether we blaspheme the Holy Spirit, will determine how much time we spend in the "lake of fire and brimstone" or whether, perchance, if it is required that our spirit and intelligence need to be "re-organized" and start the process over until such time as we are able to become One with Father and with our Savior.

"Losing" the evil battles even reap benefit according to God's purposes. Another way to see this is that even though it may appear evil is winning anything, is to realize it is NOT. We see things with finite eyes unless our spiritual eyes are open.

People are always repeating the words that the Truth will make you free. There are layers and layers, however, of Truth being revealed. Correspondingly, there are layers and layers of freedom we experience. It is NOT until ALL Truth is revealed that we are truly free and able to see the Kingdom of God. If we have not seen the Kingdom of God, then we are not yet completely free; our spirit has not yet been fully born of the Spirit.

More to come.

Many blessings to all!

jo