Flip Side of the Coin

[_Themis]

For the LDS God yes.

Themis, are you saying that other ideas about deities make those other deities more likely to exist than the LDS deity is likely to exist? If so, what are those other ideas about deities?

No I am saying the LDS God has much more evidence against it then the God's of other religions.

[_Themis]

One of the more negative consequences of a religion promoting belief in a non-existent God. Not everyone is able to get their body to produce an internal experience they can interpret as God talking to them.

Themis, I'm not sure I agree with you. I think it depends on the way one asks God a question, more than on the type of person that one is.

LOL More excuses for why members do not get an answer. I think most members have been taught the way to ask. you just don't want to admit that they don't get an answer even though they are very willing to follow it since they are already following what they have been taught.

[_Themis]

Seriously. You think inconsistency has nothing to do with anything? I suppose this is also done to protect belief.

I think that the requirement that God be consistent is a poorly thought out and extremely naïve litmus test designed to show that God doesn't exist. We don't require that we ourselves be consistent; why should we require that God be consistent?

Not really. You have demonstrated in spades poor thinking in this thread as you bounce around and are very inconsistent. I do require consistency of myself and others. Consistency by definition does not mean perfect. If someone I lend to is inconsistent in repaying me I stop lending to them. God does need to be consistent to be your good God. This is just another excuse to try and get around poor thinking.

I put no limit on the time it must take God to do the things I've said He'd do. I've said if one asks God a question, fully ready to base the rest of one's life on whatever answer God provides, then God will give that one an answer. It'd be nice if God gave that one an immediate answer, like God gave me, but I certainly don't require God to do that. God can take as long as S/He wants.

Another classic excuse for why good people don't get the same answer or no answer. Funny you don't see the problem with God taking forever with others but some he supposedly gives it right away, but then you have given enough details to suggest your experience was just internally generated. Some are better then others at this so some may take much more effort while others no amount will do it. Some also recognize the experience what it is.

If one asks God a question and goes a reasonable amount of time without getting an answer, then that one would be wise to go about her/his ordinary life, living the best that s/he knows how to, but keeping in the back of that one's mind the realization that s/he has asked God a question, and is open at any time for God to respond. What else can this person do?

Go with evidence like the Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon, etc that show their beliefs are incorrect. Many other religions will try this con of if you don't get an answer keep trying till you do no matter how long it takes. I doubt any good God would want people to maintain clearly false beliefs.

[_Themis]

AS far as LDS member being ready for a yes answer. Of course they are. IF they are active and trying to do good and follow what they are taught in church they are more then ready for a yes answer to things like the Book of Mormon.

That's my point! They're ready for a yes answer; they're not ready for a no answer; and until they are they can't count on God giving them the answer God wants them to have.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL You can't get a no answer unless the church is not true. Why should God not give one a no answer to this question? In fact Moroni's promise which is the base method of the LDS church doesn't really have a no answer built in to it. You are getting desperate with some of your posts here.

[_Madison54]

AS far as LDS member being ready for a yes answer. Of course they are. IF they are active and trying to do good and follow what they are taught in church they are more then ready for a yes answer to things like the Book of Mormon.

That's my point! They're ready for a yes answer; they're not ready for a no answer; and until they are they can't count on God giving them the answer God wants them to have.

Kevin, do you even realize how crazy that sounds? You've heard from people on here who are only a small fraction of those who've experienced pleading with God for years and years, and receiving no answer.....none.....zip....nada.

Your answer is to blame them because they are not ready for an answer? Really?

I assume you also expect them to just keep sending money to Salt Lake and giving hours and hours of their time until they are ready for an answer?

[_Themis]

Yes, even then. There's no requirement that reality be optimistic. My worldview allows me to accept truths that are unpleasant. If yours doesn't, then I submit that truth is not your overriding concern.

It's not. It's been a very long time since truth was an overriding concern for me. And I guess the question I would ask you is, why is truth an overriding concern for you? There's so much emphasis in this forum on things that are currently true, things that are realistic. I don't emphasize such things at all, nor do I see a good reason why anyone should emphasize them. In order to accomplish great things one has to have some basis in truth and reality, but it certainly looks to me that people who have accomplished great things in the past have been just as firmly based (if not more so) in things that should be, in good things that could be. So I say, go ahead and learn what is true, but also spend a little bit of time thinking of what should be true, and what one would have to do in order to make it true.

This is telling. There is a difference between trying to make something a reality that is possible and something that is not possible. Nothing will make the Book of Mormon a story of a real people. Nothing will change the reality of the church being man-made. It will do no good to want to think it should be true.

[_Cylon]

Yes, even then. There's no requirement that reality be optimistic. My worldview allows me to accept truths that are unpleasant. If yours doesn't, then I submit that truth is not your overriding concern.

It's not. It's been a very long time since truth was an overriding concern for me. And I guess the question I would ask you is, why is truth an overriding concern for you? There's so much emphasis in this forum on things that are currently true, things that are realistic. I don't emphasize such things at all, nor do I see a good reason why anyone should emphasize them. In order to accomplish great things one has to have some basis in truth and reality, but it certainly looks to me that people who have accomplished great things in the past have been just as firmly based (if not more so) in things that should be, in good things that could be. So I say, go ahead and learn what is true, but also spend a little bit of time thinking of what should be true, and what one would have to do in order to make it true.

In short, truth is important to me because I'm Mormon. The story of the boy Joseph Smith searching for the truth about religion and being rewarded with a visit from God the Father and Jesus Christ is a myth that I have internalized to a degree that is impossible to dislodge even though I no longer accept the literal reality of it. What should be and what could be is fine, but I see no reason to bother with what cannot be.

[_KevinSim]

Talking to Kevinsim about his deity is like listening to OJ Simpson's lawyer, all the time wondering why OJ is just sitting there grinning.

What kind of deity needs a lawyer like that?

God doesn't need me. God just throws Her/His head back and laughs at all the assumptions people have made about Her/His characteristics based on documents S/He has never endorsed, that those people use to prove S/He doesn't exist.

[_Chap]

Talking to Kevinsim about his deity is like listening to OJ Simpson's lawyer, all the time wondering why OJ is just sitting there grinning.

What kind of deity needs a lawyer like that?

God doesn't need me. God just throws Her/His head back and laughs at all the assumptions people have made about Her/His characteristics based on documents S/He has never endorsed, that those people use to prove S/He doesn't exist.

And this applies to you too?

If so ...

[_KevinSim]

If you say yes to those, there are at least some of those where it might be possibly to agree in advance on how they might be assessed. The problem is going to be if you start adding in criteria like:

Helping them to fufill the will of Heavenly Father.
Helping them to achieve their Exaltation
Helping them create something of eternal worth.

Once you start doing that the problem is that poor old Justme has no independent means of knowing whether he has hit your target or not. You end up with the right to move the goalposts so that you always get to win. No sensible person will play with you on those rules.

That's just my point! None of us know where to put the goalposts. I certainly don't. The possibility exists that what's good for our eternal souls may not appear to be good for us in the short term. So do we try to do what's good for us in the short term and risk disaster in the long term, or do we trust God to know what's right for us in the long term?

I've got to say, though, I wouldn't include, "Helping them to fulfill the will of Heavenly Father," as one of the criteria; I don't see how that has anything to do with our short term or long term happiness, in ways that aren't subsumed by the other two criteria you listed.