Bill Hamblin on the Future of Mormon Studies

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_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Bill Hamblin on the Future of Mormon Studies

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Cicero wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:I also have to add that it's really surprising to see somebody like Ben McGuire siding with Bill "The Hutt" Hamblin. C'mon, you guys: do you really need an apologetics that's dependent on snarkiness, personal attacks, and smear campaigns? I don't think that you do.


I can't speak for Ben, but I don't think that is what he was saying. I have generally found Ben to be a very reasonable guy. I think he was mostly siding with Bill in criticizing the value of "secularized" studies of Mormonism rather than promoting DCP-style apologetics.


Ben is almost always civil, which I suppose can translate to "reasonable," though I would add that this certainly doesn't mean that he argues in favor of "reasonable" or defensible positions. And in any case, I don't know that there is really any difference between "non-secular Mormon Studies" and vicious Mopologetics--or, rather, there is no significant difference in Hamblin's mind. What I'm saying, I suppose, is that I think the division--as described by Hamblin et al.--between "secular" and "faithful" Mormon Studies scholarship is a false one. Both faithful and secular MS scholars are capable of producing good work and of finding common ground. Both Hamblin and Ben McG. seem to be saying that the MI (or MS in general?) is going to trend towards purely secular work, or something like that. As if all the believers and all the faithful are going to be hounded out of the discipline. In other words, it's just yet more of this divisive, attack-dog mentality.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Kishkumen
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Re: Bill Hamblin on the Future of Mormon Studies

Post by _Kishkumen »

Doctor Scratch wrote:What I'm saying, I suppose, is that I think the division--as described by Hamblin et al.--between "secular" and "faithful" Mormon Studies scholarship is a false one. Both faithful and secular MS scholars are capable of producing good work and of finding common ground. Both Hamblin and Ben McG. seem to be saying that the MI (or MS in general?) is going to trend towards purely secular work, or something like that. As if all the believers and all the faithful are going to be hounded out of the discipline. In other words, it's just yet more of this divisive, attack-dog mentality.


Agreed.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Cicero
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Re: Bill Hamblin on the Future of Mormon Studies

Post by _Cicero »

Doctor Scratch wrote:Ben is almost always civil, which I suppose can translate to "reasonable," though I would add that this certainly doesn't mean that he argues in favor of "reasonable" or defensible positions. And in any case, I don't know that there is really any difference between "non-secular Mormon Studies" and vicious Mopologetics--or, rather, there is no significant difference in Hamblin's mind. What I'm saying, I suppose, is that I think the division--as described by Hamblin et al.--between "secular" and "faithful" Mormon Studies scholarship is a false one. Both faithful and secular MS scholars are capable of producing good work and of finding common ground. Both Hamblin and Ben McG. seem to be saying that the MI (or MS in general?) is going to trend towards purely secular work, or something like that. As if all the believers and all the faithful are going to be hounded out of the discipline. In other words, it's just yet more of this divisive, attack-dog mentality.


Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that I agree with Ben's view (I don't). I was merely saying that I wasn't disappointed or surprised to see him criticize "secularized' religious studies based on what I have heard him say in the past.
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Bill Hamblin on the Future of Mormon Studies

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Re: some of the specifics from Hamblins "rant"/article.... This is just bizarre. Why attack both Religious Studies and Mormon Studies as disciplines? What's the point of that? How is this going to rescue Mopologetics from the ghetto of LDS publication respectability? If Mormon Studies writ-large is something to be highly skeptical about--if it's something that Hamblin can be "neither optimistic nor enthusiastic about," then why on earth *is* he optimistic/enthusiastic about Mopologetics?

I think the part of his entry that is most problematic is this passage. I'll break it up for readability and commentary:

Another thing to note is that, despite numerous claims to the contrary, apologetics is not what’s wrong with Mormon studies. There has never been anything preventing anyone from doing any type of Mormon studies in any way they want. The fact that some Mormon scholars happen to think apologetics is an important and legitimate field of scholarship in no way prevents other scholars from doing non-apologetic Mormon studies.


One problem is that Mopologetics is/was hardly ever "scholarship," despite what these guys claim. Very few professional academics would claim that book reviews are legitimate "scholarship." You could call them "scholarly book reviews," I guess, but that would be mincing words, if not outright equivocation.

Second, while it may be true that the presence of an apologetics-heavy Maxwell Institute didn't "prevent" anyone from doing Mormon Studies in the sense of actual coercion, the fact remains that it *was* legitimately oppressive in certain ways. As people have already pointed out, the FARMS publications ultimately carried the imprimatur of BYU and thus of the Church itself. Thus, it seemed more "official," and departure from the views of FARMS authors could be seen as a kind of heresy, and as grounds for lengthy, heavily annotated attacks and/or character assassinations. Just ask Rodney Meldrum. Hamblin notes later in his post that there's no such thing as "objectivity," and that accounts of faith in religious scholarship should be "recognizable" to individual believers. Well, Meldrum is an example of someone who disagreed, and he was attacked in quite a public way--again, with the implicit stamp of approval from the Church and BYU.

Finally, the very fact that FARMS developed a reputation for snarkiness and bellicosity was, I'm sure, something of a deterrent for certain kinds of Mormon Studies writings. I'm sure that there were some authors who had second thoughts about publishing their work, simply on account of the fact that they might have to deal with a FARMS smear campaign. The conflicts with Signature Books; the stuff involving Grant Palmer; the lawsuit with Kurt Van Gorden (sp?)--how, I have to ask, was this "good for business"? Yes: Hamblin is technically right that "no one was being stopped" from doing Mormon Studies, but the Mopologists' antics can't be seen as helping the endeavor, I don't think. And I do think it's more accurate to describe them as discouraging a full and wide-randing approach to the field. Or even to say that they were engaged in a kind of intimidation of other writers and scholars.

There seems to be a delusion among some that, since Dan Peterson’s oppressive influence has at last been removed from the Maxwell Institute, Mormon studies can now finally flourish in the way that it always should have but has been prevented by Dan’s ominous specter. This is sheer nonsense. Apologetics has never prevented Mormon studies from flourishing. If Mormon studies has not flourished it is more likely because few people cared, and few did it well.


Well, okay. Another way of putting this is to say that the field is rather small. But, again: if this is true, it has to be pointed out that the major clearinghouse--the best-funded, most powerful, most "prestigious," and best organized source for Mormon Studies works was the MI. This is what people pointed to (generally) when they were talking about Mormon Studies, and for a significant number of folks, this was an embarrassment due to the way that a lot of the key figures behaved. So, if you are a rising scholar in Mormon Studies, you probably have to ask yourself: Will the wider academic community think the same of me, due to guilt by association?

In this regard it perplexes me why some people object to scholars who do apologetics. If they don’t like apologetics, they don’t have to do it. They don’t even have to read it. They can, in fact, completely ignore it. I, for example, consistently ignore the latest insights in pediatric medicine. But it would be absurd for me to argue that we must stop pediatric medical research in order to allow brain surgery to flourish. I say, let a thousand flowers bloom! If some want to do Mormon studies, let them.


If "few people care"--meaning, also, that few people are willing to endow scholarships, subscribe to journals, and/or just generally fund this work--there is going to be competition for those funds. Should they go towards legit Mormon Studies scholarship that actually stands a chance of holding up in the long run, and--heaven forbid!--actually attracting the interests of outside scholars/and or donors? Or should this go to yet more hit pieces and character assassinations?

I think that Hamblin probably sees the writing on the wall: which is that Mopologetics is going to wind up getting marginalized in the academic arena, and this scares the crap out of him. The young up-and-comers like LoaP rightly realize that there is a lot of value--that there is a genuine future--in doing scholarship that is both faithful and in accordance with the standards and etiquette of religious studies as a discipline. No one in the academy is going to wind up thinking that textual dung heaps like "Text and Context" or Greg Smith's piece on Meldrum have any actual scholarly value, beyond being a kind of sociological insight into this Mormon subculture. It's not as if these articles tell us anything new, or that they provide us with better insight into Mormonism. I'm sure that Hamblin realizes this, and it must be killing him.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Kishkumen
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Re: Bill Hamblin on the Future of Mormon Studies

Post by _Kishkumen »

Excellent thoughts, Doctor. I think there can be no doubt that Mopologetics was designed to have a chilling effect on any kind of discourse on Mormonism that did not seem laudatory, CES-approved, or at the very least very careful and friendly. I also have no doubt that many scholars ended up bending over backwards in hyper-citation and super-careful prose because they knew that FARMS was waiting to pounce on them, questioning their faith and character simply for publishing views that did not meet with their ideological approval.

The result? Stiff, bloated prose, combative rhetoric, and beefy footnotes. I have little doubt but that the presence of this squad of intellectual Gadiantons adversely affected numerous books. When you know they will be gunning for you, how do you react? In talking to my friend Don about his work in times past, I know he considered the FARMS response. Why should he have had to? It wasn't like the FARMS response led to better scholarship. To the contrary, it made scholarship harder to achieve. When you think a band of robbers is working for the king, how much greater is your fear?

But, hey, we can rejoice because their BYU bully pulpit has been yanked from them. So Bill can fulminate all he likes about the nasty crap they will post on FAIR. Go for it, Bill, and see how much less everyone gives a crap. You are increasingly irrelevant in your role as pseudo-scholarly terrorist.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Bill Hamblin on the Future of Mormon Studies

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

The thing is: the FARMS supporters insist that this old-school Mopologetics was "scholarly." Well, how? In what sense? How does it advance our knowledge on the subject? Do they think that discrediting people like Rodney Meldrum counts as "advancing knowledge"? And what about the material on Loftes Tryk? Do we now understand Mormonism better as a result of this stuff?

This is, in my opinion, one of the key reasons why LoaP has had what seems to be a change of heart in terms of what he's willing to say, and what he's willing to criticize. (And I have to say that he's got some real chutzpah criticizing Hamblin like that; these guys carry decades-long grudges.) These younger LDS scholars have gotten out there in the real academic world and they've seen that this crap just doesn't fly. Yes: it may feel satisfying to watch Dan Peterson and Gary Novak and Louis "Woody" Midgley skewer these critics of the faith, but this just isn't legitimate scholarship. It runs totally contrary to what scholarship is supposed to be about.

I don't mean to suggest that the Mopologists never had anything valuable to say, or that they never noticed or wrote about anything interesting. The problem, as LoaP himself pointed out on somebody's blog, was that there was just too much "snark," and so it allowed people (e.g., yours truly) to gloss over the stuff that actually had some merit. For example, take Welch's chiasmus stuff. I think that is interesting on its own--that you can locate these patterns in the Book of Mormon text. I would depart with some of the TBMs in thinking that this counts as "evidence" of the BoMs authenticity, but I and probably plenty of "secular" or non-LDS scholars could probably all get together and think that this has legitimate, useful, interesting scholarly value: it shows us something that we didn't know before. And if the secular or non-LDS reader prefers not to see it as confirmation that "The Church is true!", that ought to be fine--it ought not to be a reason to attack the person's character.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Kishkumen
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Re: Bill Hamblin on the Future of Mormon Studies

Post by _Kishkumen »

Doctor Scratch wrote:The thing is: the FARMS supporters insist that this old-school Mopologetics was "scholarly." Well, how? In what sense? How does it advance our knowledge on the subject? Do they think that discrediting people like Rodney Meldrum counts as "advancing knowledge"? And what about the material on Loftes Tryk? Do we now understand Mormonism better as a result of this stuff?


We are no better off for the attack reviews. Not one bit. I don't consider such attacks to be scholarship. They didn't advance anyone's knowledge. Often times they were simply giant distractions designed to keep people from reading the book, or so skew one's perspective on a work that fewer people could give it a fair reading.

Doctor Scratch wrote:This is, in my opinion, one of the key reasons why LoaP has had what seems to be a change of heart in terms of what he's willing to say, and what he's willing to criticize. (And I have to say that he's got some real chutzpah criticizing Hamblin like that; these guys carry decades-long grudges.) These younger LDS scholars have gotten out there in the real academic world and they've seen that this crap just doesn't fly. Yes: it may feel satisfying to watch Dan Peterson and Gary Novak and Louis "Woody" Midgley skewer these critics of the faith, but this just isn't legitimate scholarship. It runs totally contrary to what scholarship is supposed to be about.


I agree. Scholarship should be about advancing our understanding and knowledge about a topic. The attack reviews were more like a bad segment of Fox News reporting. The person who bought it was misinformed, in a worse position than before the reading, thanks to the FARMS crew. Some of Gee's work on the Book of Abraham deliberately functions to mislead people from making certain conclusions. This is about as bad as it gets, and brother is it bad.

Doctor Scratch wrote:I don't mean to suggest that the Mopologists never had anything valuable to say, or that they never noticed or wrote about anything interesting. The problem, as LoaP himself pointed out on somebody's blog, was that there was just too much "snark," and so it allowed people (e.g., yours truly) to gloss over the stuff that actually had some merit. For example, take Welch's chiasmus stuff. I think that is interesting on its own--that you can locate these patterns in the Book of Mormon text. I would depart with some of the TBMs in thinking that this counts as "evidence" of the BoMs authenticity, but I and probably plenty of "secular" or non-LDS scholars could probably all get together and think that this has legitimate, useful, interesting scholarly value: it shows us something that we didn't know before. And if the secular or non-LDS reader prefers not to see it as confirmation that "The Church is true!", that ought to be fine--it ought not to be a reason to attack the person's character.


I love how they would complain when someone hadn't read their article on some topic. Big surprise. Who would want to? Since they had already convinced so many people, through their attack reviews, that they were hacks who were totally uninterested in really advancing knowledge on a topic, reading their scholarship on a topic, when it was honest, was something one would be automatically disinclined to do. So, their viciousness really bit them in the butt that way. Hey, they have written some really interesting stuff, but they are such assholes in other arenas that the last thing you want to do after seeing them in that context is kick back and read their good stuff.

They did all this to themselves. You behave like a jerk, and people get alienated from you. Now, obviously, they have their circle of special super friends who worship at their altar and receive their condescension, but so many people want to have little to do with them, much more than you would guess if you did not know their apologetics, that you have to conclude that the apologetics themselves were the cause of much harm, not only to others, but themselves.

In a sense they became something like Dementors in the Harry Potter universe. Engaged in a mission of security and protection, but in the end sucking the life out of others and inspiring dread.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_MrStakhanovite
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Re: Bill Hamblin on the Future of Mormon Studies

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

Anyone else bothered by this?

Hamblin wrote:It’s really breathtaking to watch political correctness run amok in the academy. (My favorite example was a session on “Eco-feminism, food and pets.” I’m not making this up.)




Didn't really need to say that, I thought.
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Re: Bill Hamblin on the Future of Mormon Studies

Post by _Kishkumen »

MrStakhanovite wrote:Anyone else bothered by this?

Hamblin wrote:It’s really breathtaking to watch political correctness run amok in the academy. (My favorite example was a session on “Eco-feminism, food and pets.” I’m not making this up.)


Didn't really need to say that, I thought.



Thanks for bringing that up, Stak. I think it is very revealing. Because what it shows, above all, is that Hamblin, DCP, Midgley, and others are really ideological warriors fighting their politics through their religion. This really is, in many ways, about fighting liberals. Droopy and bcspace are simply more up front about it. Make no mistake, however, the FARMS crew is dominated by ideologically conservative personalities whose religious views work hand in hand with their political orientation. They are fighting the lefties of Mormonism.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Philo Sofee
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Re: Bill Hamblin on the Future of Mormon Studies

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Anyone else bothered by this?

Hamblin wrote:It’s really breathtaking to watch political correctness run amok in the academy. (My favorite example was a session on “Eco-feminism, food and pets.” I’m not making this up.)

Didn't really need to say that, I thought.


Thanks for bringing that up, Stak. I think it is very revealing. Because what it shows, above all, is that Hamblin, DCP, Midgley, and others are really ideological warriors fighting their politics through their religion. This really is, in many ways, about fighting liberals. Droopy and bcspace are simply more up front about it. Make no mistake, however, the FARMS crew is dominated by ideologically conservative personalities whose religious views work hand in hand with their political orientation. They are fighting the lefties of Mormonism.


Well we lefties are mad as hell and we're not gonna take it anymore!!!! :lol:
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