The Bible is full of passages that support universalism. I'll start with John 12:32. "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." He doesn't say some men, but all men. There really aren't any verses that say that God forecloses at death.
To whom was Jesus speaking? Was he speaking to a multitude of people of various nationalities and backgrounds? Jesus was simply saying he would draw men from every kindred, every kind and every sort. Was Jesus leaving out women? Of course not! Jesus was speaking about where believers would come from. They would come from ALL sorts of backgrounds, come from ALL races. They would be from both Jew and gentile. At the same time, I do see that even atheists point at Jesus when they try to condemn Christianity --- so they are being drawn but simply refuse to take the step of faith God lays out for them ---- drawn but not captured...
That is the most strained interpretation of that verse that one could make. It obviously says all, but we're going to ignore that and accept the traditional interpretation the Catholic Church laid upon us after Augustine. Before Augustine people like St. Gregory of Nyssa and Origin believed in the reconciliation of all based on scriptures like this (and many others). Even the Catholic Church is beginning to back away from Augustine's theology which condemned unbaptized infants to hell.
Boilermaker wrote: So how many people belong to your church?
All who receive or ever have received or who ever will receive the power of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
The Apostle Paul for instance:
1Corinthians 2: 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Of course you mean nobody on the planet believes what I teach and therefore I lose. lol
You will seek an answer to this proverb and not find it:
THIS IS WINNING?
That's been my point. In Christ everyone eventually will choose to win.
Nightlion wrote:John 10 kills universalism very dead. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
Notice that his sheep get exaltation or eternal life. Few there be that find it.
The number who find it in this life are quite few. That much is certain.
The phrase "Eternal Life" to a Jew in Jesus' day didn't have anything to do with life after life. It referred to the manner of living peacefully and happily, also referred to by Christ as "The Way".
"In my more rebellious days I tried to doubt the existence of the sacred, but the universe kept dancing and life kept writing poetry across my life." ~ David N. Elkins, 1998, Beyond Religion, p. 81
Nightlion wrote:John 10 kills universalism very dead. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
Notice that his sheep get exaltation or eternal life. Few there be that find it.
The number who find it in this life are quite few. That much is certain.
The phrase "Eternal Life" to a Jew in Jesus' day didn't have anything to do with life after life. It referred to the manner of living peacefully and happily, also referred to by Christ as "The Way".
You accept that Christ, being God, could only think as a Jew? When did he ever agree with them?
Boilermaker wrote: That's been my point. In Christ everyone eventually will choose to win.
You have no problem being unsophisticated and indiscriminate about it?
I have this very simple faith that Christ came to save the world rather than to condemn the world. He promised to draw everyone to him after his resurrection. Somehow, in a way I don't completely claim to understand, Christ will use the freedom he gave to everyone to bring them willingly to salvation. There are entire books on the subject if you're interested which are much more "sophisticated" than I can present on a discussion board. I have linked to a couple of articles which can get you started. I get the feeling you are more interested in exalting yourself by condemning others, but I don't know you beyond this discussion board so I could be wrong.
Nightlion wrote:You accept that Christ, being God, could only think as a Jew? When did he ever agree with them?
Not only did He think like a Jew, He was a Rabbi, probably a Pharisee after the school of Hillel and in Matthew 23, before He excoriates the hypocrites (a very specific subset of Pharisees, not the entire sect), He outright tells His followers to do what the Pharisees say and to respect their authority for they sit in Moses' seat.
That's doesn't diminish His godhood, it recognizes that His words have context. And to quote you earlier in the thread "Context is King."
"In my more rebellious days I tried to doubt the existence of the sacred, but the universe kept dancing and life kept writing poetry across my life." ~ David N. Elkins, 1998, Beyond Religion, p. 81
"In my more rebellious days I tried to doubt the existence of the sacred, but the universe kept dancing and life kept writing poetry across my life." ~ David N. Elkins, 1998, Beyond Religion, p. 81
ludwigm wrote:Ah yes, so we all, in Heaven and in hell get new brains. So in other words we get a spiritual lobotomy. And we become one total different personage.
OK, then I leave out the heaven. I am who I am (sounds familiar?), and I want to remain the same - or nothing.
One must die to self to enter heaven. You are not GOD --- never were and never will be.
John 12:32. "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." To whom was Jesus speaking? Was he speaking to a multitude of people of various nationalities and backgrounds? Jesus was simply saying he would draw men from every kindred, every kind and every sort. Was Jesus leaving out women? Of course not! Jesus was speaking about where believers would come from. They would come from ALL sorts of backgrounds, come from ALL races. They would be from both Jew and gentile. At the same time, I do see that even atheists point at Jesus when they try to condemn Christianity --- so they are being drawn but simply refuse to take the step of faith God lays out for them ---- drawn but not captured...
That is the most strained interpretation of that verse that one could make. It obviously says all, but we're going to ignore that and accept the traditional interpretation the Catholic Church laid upon us after Augustine. Before Augustine people like St. Gregory of Nyssa and Origin believed in the reconciliation of all based on scriptures like this (and many others). Even the Catholic Church is beginning to back away from Augustine's theology which condemned unbaptized infants to hell.