Flip Side of the Coin

[_KevinSim]

From the Book of Mormon teacher manual...

Mormon 9:9–11, 19. God Is an All-Knowing, Unchangeable Being
Have students read Mormon 9:9–10 and 2 Nephi 9:20 silently.

• Why is it important for you to know that God is all-knowing and unchangeable?
Explain to students that in order to “exercise faith in God unto life and salvation,” we must have “a correct idea of his character, perfections, and attributes” (Lectures on Faith [1985], 38; italics in original). Direct students’ attention to Moroni’s warning that some people “have imagined … a god who doth vary” (Mormon 9:10).

Kevin, do you not know what the Church teaches?

Drifting, I think I see what you're saying. But all I've been talking about is the characteristics of the way God talks, not about God's nature. God can be perfectly unchangeable and still talk in seeming inconsistency to make a point.

[_KevinSim]

No. Of course he wasn't totally wrong. There are some things that can make a human stronger either physically, emotionally or intellectually and there are other things that make a person weaker in any of those ways without actually killing them.

Then we are in agreement.

[_KevinSim]

Either the church is true and holds the keys to saving ordinances or it is not true and does not have the keys to saving ordinances.

To tell someone "no" when the answer is "yes" or vice versa is not only being inconsistent it is also lying.

I agree with that too. That's not what I was talking about. All that I was saying is that sometimes someone asks a question and the answer the other person provides is, "Yes and no," and sometimes that's the perfectly correct answer.

[_KevinSim]

Yes

Let me just be sure what you're saying here. The God of Roman Catholics, Evangelicals, and Methodists has the power to cause souls to cease to exist, right? That God also chooses not to use that power to put the unsaved out of their misery, right? According to Biblical Christianity the souls of the unsaved will suffer unbearable agony from the point of their death for the rest of eternity, right?

And you're saying that there's more evidence against the LDS God than there is against the God I've just described?

Correct me if I'm wrong; what I've said up above is just what I've been led to believe after hearing a lot of people talk about Biblical Christianity.

[_Tobin]

Yes

Let me just be sure what you're saying here. The God of Roman Catholics, Evangelicals, and Methodists has the power to cause souls to cease to exist, right? That God also chooses not to use that power to put the unsaved out of their misery, right? According to Biblical Christianity the souls of the unsaved will suffer unbearable agony from the point of their death for the rest of eternity, right?

And you're saying that there's more evidence against the LDS God than there is against the God I've just described?

Correct me if I'm wrong; what I've said up above is just what I've been led to believe after hearing a lot of people talk about Biblical Christianity.

Kevin, Themis has asserted this to me many times in many threads. I've yet to see him produce any credible evidence that God doesn't exist (Mormon or otherwise).

[Guest]

This is just another excuse. You are making crap up to protect your beliefs.

No I'm not. Making "crap up to protect" my beliefs implies that I'm making it up right now, in response to the objections you've raised. What I'm telling you is things I have believed for the 35 years since asking God my question.

I agree with you, to some extent. The LDS Church doesn't teach that the asker needs to be as prepared for a no answer as the asker is prepared for a yes answer. But I knew that at the time, as a 17-year-old. I knew that I wanted a yes answer, and therefore the answer I got couldn't be counted on to have come from God. It wasn't until I was prepared for either a yes answer or a no answer that I got the answer that I could be sure came from God.

It's a bit arrogant that you put in enough thought for your answer as a child that others who have been active for decades don't get.

There's no arrogance in putting two and two together and coming up with a conclusion.

[_Elphaba]

It wasn't until I was prepared for either a yes answer or a no answer that I got the answer that I could be sure came from God.

This is just ridiculous. Whenever you ask a question hoping the answer is "yes," it is obviously implied the response may be "no." I'm sure even a god would realize that.

In fact, many people have gotten a literal "no" when asking god whether or not the LDS Church is true, and it would be absurd to insist every single one of them was hoping the answer would be "no."

Additionally, if the question must be asked the way you did, prepared to accept either a "yes" or "no," you must also admit that many millions of other Mormons' spiritual affirmations were nothing more than wishful thinking.

Finally, and I admit this is supposition on my part, it is simply impossible for someone raised in the Church to be prepared for a "no" response, unless that's what s/he really subconsciously wanted. The conditioning that "the Church is true" is simply too intense. I am not saying you're lying, in that I believe you were completely ready for a "no" answer on a conscious level. But on a subconscious level, no, I don't believe it. I think you still got the answer you wanted.

Regardless, it's nonsensical that a god would be bound by how the person asks the question, as long as the question was asked sincerely. This just gets more bizarre with each explanation.

[_Themis]

Kevin's posts aren't that hard to follow. As far as I can tell, he has no direct evidence that God exists. But, that does not stop him from believing in God and that one day he will have that evidence. Now, many of you might suggest that is self-delusion, but believing in something that is true without having direct evidence of it does not imply that at all.

It's called self deception. Lots of people believe in Xenu without any direct evidence. It's worse foe LDS since there is a lot of direct evidence Joseph was making it up.

[_Themis]

Drifting, I think I see what you're saying. But all I've been talking about is the characteristics of the way God talks, not about God's nature. God can be perfectly unchangeable and still talk in seeming inconsistency to make a point.

Stop the BS. Again consistency is required by me and others so God is not exempt. It's that you have to deal with a man-made inconsistent God who you think will now lie and tell people the opposite of what is true.

[_Themis]

Kevin, Themis has asserted this to me many times in many threads. I've yet to see him produce any credible evidence that God doesn't exist (Mormon or otherwise).

I and many others have shown tobin lots of evidence against the LDS God but he, like I was at one time, is not open minded enough to accept it. Kevin just because you don't like some of their beliefs does not provide any direct evidence against them. There is plenty of direct evidence against LDS truth claims that we don't have in then same amount or quality of the other groups you brought up.