What Counts For Spiritual Abuse?

[_Infymus]

Asked At Age 14 About Masturbation Behind Closed Doors

http://mormoncurtain.com/#pub_-76734755

I Was Interviewed At Age 14 About Masturbation

http://mormoncurtain.com/#pub_-1529092056

Daughter Had A 12 year Old Interview - Gets Home And Asks "What's Masturbation?"

http://mormoncurtain.com/#pub_-1094815492

More than just spiritual abuse. Down right immoral and should be illegal.

[_Tobin]

Don't worry Valentinus, you'll catch on to Nightlion's style soon enough.

In this case, though, I'm kinda with him. If the temple covenants really are as serious as the church says they are, and if not living up to each and every one of them in their entirety really will put you under Satan's power, then leading people to take those covenants while being unprepared is abusive. And is anyone seriously going to argue that we prepare people for the temple adequately? Our temple preparation classes teach almost nothing about what's actually going to happen in the temple, but most importantly, we don't even tell people what they are going to be covenanting until it's already too late to back out. And the stupid thing is that there's no doctrinal reason for it. The only things we vow not to reveal about the temple are the specific signs and tokens. There's absolutely no reason we can't tell prospective missionaries and brides "here is what you will be expected to promise." The secrecy around everything regarding the temple is entirely cultural.

I don't think that's exactly what Nightlion was getting at, but that's my take on it.

Again, it isn't abuse - it's shocking. I was shocked by it and I don't know many people that aren't. And as I pointed out to Nightlion, many of the things in the endowment are unnecessary and silly (including the clothing). You really shouldn't need a preparation class if the endowment was done better and modernized, but since they haven't done that - removed all (they've removed some which is a good thing) the silly freemasonry non-sense and so on - it is still a problem.

[_Cylon]

Don't worry Valentinus, you'll catch on to Nightlion's style soon enough.

In this case, though, I'm kinda with him. If the temple covenants really are as serious as the church says they are, and if not living up to each and every one of them in their entirety really will put you under Satan's power, then leading people to take those covenants while being unprepared is abusive. And is anyone seriously going to argue that we prepare people for the temple adequately? Our temple preparation classes teach almost nothing about what's actually going to happen in the temple, but most importantly, we don't even tell people what they are going to be covenanting until it's already too late to back out. And the stupid thing is that there's no doctrinal reason for it. The only things we vow not to reveal about the temple are the specific signs and tokens. There's absolutely no reason we can't tell prospective missionaries and brides "here is what you will be expected to promise." The secrecy around everything regarding the temple is entirely cultural.

I don't think that's exactly what Nightlion was getting at, but that's my take on it.

Again, it isn't abuse - it's shocking. I was shocked by it and I don't know many people that aren't. And as I pointed out to Nightlion, many of the things in the endowment are unnecessary and silly (including the clothing). You really shouldn't need a preparation class if the endowment was done better and modernized, but since they haven't done that - removed all (they've removed some which is a good thing) the silly freemasonry non-sense and so on - it is still a problem.

No, you're missing my point. I agree that we should prepare people better for the strange aspects of the temple ceremony as well due to the shock factor, but the abuse comes in if you take the covenants in the temple seriously. How can you expect someone to make covenants that will last into eternity if they don't even know what they're getting into until they're already being asked to commit, with no real way to decline? If the covenants are real, then those who would have declined to make them had they known what they were getting into are now subject to eternal punishment in the afterlife because of religious pressure. That's spiritual abuse.

[_Tobin]

No, you're missing my point. I agree that we should prepare people better for the strange aspects of the temple ceremony as well due to the shock factor, but the abuse comes in if you take the covenants in the temple seriously. How can you expect someone to make covenants that will last into eternity if they don't even know what they're getting into until they're already being asked to commit, with no real way to decline? If the covenants are real, then those who would have declined to make them had they known what they were getting into are now subject to eternal punishment in the afterlife because of religious pressure. That's spiritual abuse.

You should take promises with the Lord seriously. I might see how it could be self-abuse if take an extreme view of them and aren't very flexible, but that isn't really the endowment or the Lord's fault. I believe the whole thing could be better done and that the temple should be open for anyone to come and attend, but the TBMs are in charge and prefer the broken version of the temple that they have because of "tradition". TBMs often miss the point and do a lot of things like that and it keeps the Church from flourishing.

[_Valentinus]

Well this wasn't a real response to my the CFR I asked for. Rather than give a coherent and constructive response you reply with 2 sentences. One was a question to bait. The other was a childlike temper tantrum in the form of a really long run on sentence that made no sense.

Anyway...this will be a reminder for me NOT to take you seriously from here on out.

If you failed to understand what I said seriousness is the least of your concerns.

I doubt an English teacher would blame me for my inability to comprehend your rant since it would more than likely be a nightmare for them as well. But I don't presume to think you care what any English professional thinks of your style(?).

Also, if you are incapable of clarifying what you meant then that is telling of the type of personality that you are.

[_Valentinus]

Anyway...this will be a reminder for me NOT to take you seriously from here on out.

It is worth noting that Nightlion is a prophet. Indeed he is the ONLY valid prophet in these Latter Days, and the only real Mormon. So his communications have a special flavor.

Is he related to Bert10 over at the CARMite board?

[_Cylon]

You should take promises with the Lord seriously. I might see how it could be self-abuse if take an extreme view of them and aren't very flexible, but that isn't really the endowment or the Lord's fault. I believe the whole thing could be better done and that the temple should be open for anyone to come and attend, but the TBMs are in charge and prefer the broken version of the temple that they have because of "tradition". TBMs often miss the point and do a lot of things like that and it keeps the Church from flourishing.

Look, I have no way of evaluating some ideal version of the temple and the endowment that exists in your head, I can only evaluate the endowment ceremony that actually exists in the temples today. And in the ceremony today, it says straight out that those who don't live up to the temple covenants will be in Satan's power. I don't see how it can be an "extreme" view to take that at face value.

[_Tobin]

You should take promises with the Lord seriously. I might see how it could be self-abuse if take an extreme view of them and aren't very flexible, but that isn't really the endowment or the Lord's fault. I believe the whole thing could be better done and that the temple should be open for anyone to come and attend, but the TBMs are in charge and prefer the broken version of the temple that they have because of "tradition". TBMs often miss the point and do a lot of things like that and it keeps the Church from flourishing.

Look, I have no way of evaluating some ideal version of the temple and the endowment that exists in your head, I can only evaluate the endowment ceremony that actually exists in the temples today. And in the ceremony today, it says straight out that those who don't live up to the temple covenants will be in Satan's power. I don't see how it can be an "extreme" view to take that at face value.

You don't need to know exactly what I believe or think. As Jo and I have pointed out in multiple posts, the whole of the gospel must hang together in context. That includes the endowment. Those things that are part of the endowment, but not part of the gospel should be rejected or refined (as I'm stating to you). It wouldn't take much effort, but because it is the endowment and dressed up in freemasonry - TBMs don't.

Anyway, what you cited is a good example. We are already in Satan's power. What you should draw from your promises to the Lord (and what you should take seriously) is to free ourselves from him, we should obey and follow the Lord as best we know how and as God gives us the light to see and understand the gospel.

[_Nightlion]

No, you're missing my point. I agree that we should prepare people better for the strange aspects of the temple ceremony as well due to the shock factor, but the abuse comes in if you take the covenants in the temple seriously. How can you expect someone to make covenants that will last into eternity if they don't even know what they're getting into until they're already being asked to commit, with no real way to decline? If the covenants are real, then those who would have declined to make them had they known what they were getting into are now subject to eternal punishment in the afterlife because of religious pressure. That's spiritual abuse.

My point is the same point and only point with which I have to do, namely, get the promise of the Father which is the REAL gospel even the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. You cannot get this lightly. IT requires all your heart, might, mind and strength put in subjection to Christ at all hazards forever and ever. IF you had made that caliber of commitment already THEN the temple is a walk in the park in the cool of the day. IF not then you are abused having even gone into the temple UNCLEAN to begin with and for that blasphemy you are going to be smitten in the due time of the Lord and all the endowment piled on top of you patted down fills up your cup of abomination overflowing in condemnations that will merit you the vengeance of a burning recompense.

THAT"S ALL

Have a nice day.

Satan could not be happier or more well pleased with how his servants bring nations and people under his power and under the condemnation of the Father. He looks at Salt Lake City and belly laughs himself silly.

[_Nightlion]

Anyway, what you cited is a good example. We are already in Satan's power. What you should draw from your promises to the Lord (and what you should take seriously) is to free ourselves from him, we should obey and follow the Lord as best we know how and as God gives us the light to see and understand the gospel.

Tobin, I rebuke thee. Stop pretending to know the gospel which you obviously have not partaken of. Maybe you got a witness of an angel or something but you have not finished your course neither have you come unto Christ with full purpose of heart that he might heal you. Don't tell me you have. You cannot teach what you do not know.
You abuse yourself to think you know so much. Man, I am here to tell ya.

Now don't go thinking I must hate you. I am getting my dander up lately though so watch it.