The Will Bagley fan page

[_Joe Geisner]

I hope you can join with me in being a part of Will's fan page and show support for Will. The amount of work and dedication Will has for discovering information about the American West is unmatched.

http://www.Facebook.com/WillBagleyFan

[_Madison54]

I love Will Bagley! I think I own nearly every one of his books and have devoured them all.

I've even emailed back and forth with him a bit and he's always such a gentleman and so willing to converse and answer questions, make comments, etc.

Thanks for posting this Joe!

[_Nomomo]

I love Will Bagley! I think I own nearly every one of his books and have devoured them all.

I've even emailed back and forth with him a bit and he's always such a gentleman and so willing to converse and answer questions, make comments, etc.

Thanks for posting this Joe!

Anyone know if Will still stands by his conclusion that Brigham ordered the MMM?

[_Joe Geisner]

I love Will Bagley! I think I own nearly every one of his books and have devoured them all.

I've even emailed back and forth with him a bit and he's always such a gentleman and so willing to converse and answer questions, make comments, etc.

Thanks for posting this Joe!

Wonderful sentiments Madison. I will forward this on to Will.

[_Joe Geisner]

Anyone know if Will still stands by his conclusion that Brigham ordered the MMM?

Nomomo

I am 99% sure he does. There has been no historical evidence to conclude otherwise, all evidence discovered since BOTP's has supported such a conclusion. There is still no irrefutable evidence either way, and I am sure Young made that happen.

[_Cicero]

I am 99% sure he does. There has been no historical evidence to conclude otherwise, all evidence discovered since BOTP's has supported such a conclusion. There is still no irrefutable evidence either way, and I am sure Young made that happen.

As Joe knows well, historians have long wondered if there is a "smoking gun" tying Young to the MMM directly, but I would guess if any such document existed then it has long since been destroyed. I personally don't think he ordered it, but he does bear at least some responsibility given all the crazy, blood-soaked rhetoric he was spouting at the time.

[_Joe Geisner]

As Joe knows well, historians have long wondered if there is a "smoking gun" tying Young to the MMM directly, but I would guess if any such document existed then it has long since been destroyed. I personally don't think he ordered it, but he does bear at least some responsibility given all the crazy, blood-soaked rhetoric he was spouting at the time.

Cicero,

Great observations.

As Bill MacKinnon told me a number of years, "intelligent people can disagree with
/about MMM in an intelligent manner."

Bill also told me that once he saw the Young letters to Aaron Johnson and the leaders south he also knew that Young was capable of ordering the cold blooded murder of innocent people.

[_Cicero]

Bill also told me that once he saw the Young letters to Aaron Johnson and the leaders south he also knew that Young was capable of ordering the cold blooded murder of innocent people.

He certainly hung John D. Lee out to dry, that's for sure.

[_Joe Geisner]

He certainly hung John D. Lee out to dry, that's for sure.

Young is an easy target and I should probably not spend time on this. But...

After reading Will's amazing article http://user.xmission.com/~research/central/handcart.pdf
"One Long Funeral March" and Young putting a steam engine before the lives of the Saints, well that is one calloused SOB.

If you have not read At Swords Point and Mormon Rebellion, then get out of here and get both.:-) Young was a tyrant and dictator. He also was a cold blooded murderer. But he did colonize Deseret. :-)

[_Madison54]

As Joe knows well, historians have long wondered if there is a "smoking gun" tying Young to the MMM directly, but I would guess if any such document existed then it has long since been destroyed. I personally don't think he ordered it, but he does bear at least some responsibility given all the crazy, blood-soaked rhetoric he was spouting at the time.

Will Bagley's book, Innocent Blood: Essential Narrative of the Mountain Meadows Massacre was fascinating to read. Within this book, he writes about the research he did into the records of the victims and their families. He puts faces and stories behind their journey out west and I was struck with how many wives and children were alone in this wagon train...heading out to join their husbands and fathers who had gone ahead of them to California.

I did not know that there were more women and children killed than men until I read Bagley's book above.

I do agree with Cicero that we cannot be 100% sure regarding whether or not BY ordered this massacre. However two things have left me wondering if he at least didn't have some involvement or foreknowledge:

- I have always wondered why the leaders in Southern Utah even had to send a messenger up to BY asking what they should do. If there hadn't been some precedent of violence already set, why did they have to even ask if they should allow this group to pass safely through southern Utah? If BY was a loving, kind, harmless leader, why did they have to ask him whether or not to kill these people? Can you imagine someone today needing to send a runner up to Pres. Monson to see if they should kill someone or not? I know it was very different times and a more dangerous environment, but still....why even have to ask? Why not do the Christian thing and help these travelers on their way to California?

- After studying what went on during this period of time in Utah and reading about the great fear and terror that existed (for a number of reasons but mainly the reformation), I find it difficult to believe that anything went on without BY at least knowing about it and giving some type of nod of approval. I'm not saying he knew the atrocity that would take place or even any of the details, but the train did pass through SLC prior to going down south.