Christian Universalism seems to make people mad

[_zeezrom]

....and daughters imho) of Perdition.

What a very yellow journalistically (non-doctrinal) feminist view!

[_KevinSim]

I sometimes get the feeling that Christians would rather deal with atheists than with people who believe in Christian Universalism.

In my opinion the biggest problem with Evangelical Christianity is that they believe in a God who is so omnipotent that He can cause souls to cease to exist if He wants to, but also in a God who chooses not to use that power in the cases of the unsaved. Those unsaved will suffer unbearable agony from the point at which they die and then on and on forever. They will never stop suffering; God will never put them out of their misery. How in the world could a good God let this punishment go on like this? If one can't know that a good God would put the unsaved out of their misery if that good God had that ability, then what can one know that a good God would do?

I don't think there's an answer to that question, and that really takes Evangelical Christianity away from serious consideration that it might be inspired by God.

There are a number of different ways to solve this problem. Seventh-Day Adventists believe in annihilation; they believe that at some future point God will put the unsaved out of their misery. I'm no big fan of Jehovah's Witnesses, but I have to give credit where credit is due; they also solve this problem by believing that death is the end of conscious existence; only the saved will go on living after they die. And, of course, Christian Universalism solves the problem by believing that eventually everyone will escape Hell.

That might be why Biblical Christians react so strongly to universalism; maybe subconsciously they realize that it solves the problem they really refuse to address.

Christian-leaning groups aren't the only ones who have solved this problem. The reincarnation system believed by Hindus and Buddhists (and Sikhs?) handily solve the problem. As I understand it, Judaism doesn't have a belief in the afterlife, so Judaism also solves it.

But if you want a faith group that solves the problem with the highest degree of consistency with the message of the Christian Bible, I think you're stuck with the LDS Church. The general truth is that God is indeed omnipotent; He can indeed do all things. But there is at least one exception to that rule, revealed in Do&Co 93; intelligence is not made, nor can it be made, even by God. It's not a major leap of logic from that statement to the conclusion that God cannot destroy intelligence either. So God would put the unsaved out of their misery if He could, but He can't, so He won't.

[_EAllusion]

Huh. Christian Universalism looks very similar to Mormonism. "Hell is not eternal in time."

Mormon theology embraces a sort of universalism-lite. The Book of Mormon stridently condemns universalism - because apparently that's the sort of thing Jewish mesoamericans were interested in* - but later developments in Mormon theology go 3/4ths of the way there. But, before we start slapping each other's backs over this development, it bears mentioning that the arguments for universalism look at salvation as the ultimate end, the best possible state of being in otherwords, whereas in Mormon theology it takes on a lesser status. The idea of universalism is that eventually everyone achieves God's best possible outcome as a nod to God's beaming benevolence, whereas in Mormon theology it's more like, "the vast majority of people will achieve an outcome that, when you think about it, ain't that bad, though definitely something worth avoiding." That's a significant gap.


*As a bonus, here's a FARMS review on the subject that goes Godwin on Dan Vogel a few paragraphs in.

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... m=1&id=145

[_Jason Bourne]

Except for a few message boards (MDD, MD, CARM, etc.) we generally feel free to talk about anything, anytime, anywhere. As for Christian Universalism, LDS doctrine implies that most will ultimately saved but very few restored to a right, or full, relationship with God.

CFR BC on the very few who will be restored to a full relationship with God. I do not recall and official teaching stating that few will be in the celestial kingdom.

[_Valentinus]

Except for a few message boards (MDD, MD, CARM, etc.) we generally feel free to talk about anything, anytime, anywhere. As for Christian Universalism, LDS doctrine implies that most will ultimately saved but very few restored to a right, or full, relationship with God.

CFR BC on the very few who will be restored to a full relationship with God. I do not recall and official teaching stating that few will be in the celestial kingdom.

I will second the CFR. The election that BC is talking about seems too similar to that of a famous reformer with 5 points. This kind of theology is reprehensible because it doesn't appear to have unconditional love as expressed in the Gospels.

[_Nightlion]

My vision of coming unto Christ isn't fuzzy in the least.

Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ
Repentance through Him
Baptism (covenant making) to take His name
Baptism by fire as the Spirit purifies, refines, and instructs
Abiding the laws of each kingdom progressively and gaining wisdom and knowledge accordingly until we are prepared to be presented at the veil, a symbol of the flesh of Christ (Heb 10) where the Spirit bears witness before the Father that we have received all we need to enter His Kingdom.

Okay, let me get this out of the way first. Not fuzzy huh? Well, yes you are intentionally very fuzzy indeed.
You see there where you stretch out the baptism of fire as an ongoing event? That is fuzzification if ever I did see it. Of course after the REAL baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost every man/woman is taught of God and led by the hand of Christ from a small understanding to a greater understanding. But this ongoing part is NOT the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. When you are visited of the promise of the Father and made to partake of his power in the regeneration of what you fundamentally are to become fundamentally transformed by the power of the Holy Ghost into a NEW creature your are SUDDENLY awakened to a newness of life and power and faculty is put upon you, as you are indeed fitted with the accouterments of a higher state of existence requires all of a moment in time after successful repentance and precisely taking upon you the name of Christ agreeably with Heaven's standard and not that of man.

This is foreign to you. You never heard anyone before tell it like this. You personally have never had such an experience and you teach all around it like you already own it without comprehending what you have ignored and in fact what you are trampling upon.

Obviously you are fond of having things fuzzy and nobody is going to take that from you. If you happen to consider that there may be merit to what I say, perhaps, because you see the exact same things as what I say reported in every scriptural account of the event that even slightly says more than mentioning the event alone.

Take for example just where along your long drawn out line of baptism of fire would it finally come unto you to sing the song of redeeming love? And what changed to bring that to you? Nothing changes notably does it?
Do I have to tell you why that is.

I am somewhat intrigued as to who is leading your thoughts. You come well prepared with a ministry in total.
Who is you leader? Please, not Christopher N? Oh man!

[_mercyngrace]

Who is you leader? Please, not Christopher N? Oh man!

Three strikes and you're out, Nightlion. Twice in this thread you attempted to use a tactic with which the MDDB has made me quite familiar - trying to paint me as belonging to some "clan", or a "camp", and now you are talking about Christopher N, who I'm guessing is Nemelka. The problem sir, is that you are making this up out of whole cloth.

The only thing I know about Christopher N., provided I've guessed the right person, is what I read from a link maybe a year ago about how he bilked an elderly lady of some reputation out of her money. At least, that's what I recall off the top of my head.

If this fellow has a following on the east coast, I'd be quite surprised.

So.

If you want to discuss specifics and having one's calling and election made sure, we can. I will discuss doctrinal issues. But I'm not going to respond to anymore self-righteous, condescending, nonsense.

eta: I actually agree with your premise about the baptism of fire and we could have an interesting conversation about that if you were willing to stop playing the clairvoyant - which, given your guesses so far, you clearly aren't.

[_Nightlion]

I see it more mysticism than salvation. All of the resent CU spouts are very nebulous about what's exactly what. It cannot help but come off fully packed with manipulations that play to humanistic ends rather than serve God in any way. I am seeing it like everyone is floating a boat gently, gently down the same stream. Some are troubled in turbulence and others wreck on shore, but eventually, eventually, everyone arrives regardless of how they road out their time. How is God and Christ more than incidental. Sorry but it seems like you want to Baha'i Christianity.

If every kingdom of glory is NOT hell because it IS a kingdom of glory even the lowest then in that context EVERYONE is saved to some degree of glory. But that is NOT what you mean. Is it? I heard one of your camp declare Universal Exaltation..........really?

Nightlion, the fact that you ask how God and Christ figure reveals that we aren't communicating clearly. The role of Christ is as central as ever and progress through becoming godly is likewise, central to progression.

Christ remains the narrow way. Every saved soul must follow the same process of repentance, coming unto Christ, becoming justified through Him, and acquiring the knowledge and attributes of God. The path doesn't change. There is no suggestion of a free ride into the kingdom. None.

As for universal exaltation...

I posted a quote from Lectures on Faith where Joseph Smith explains that salvation is the same thing we presently term exaltation. The D&C bears this out (compare D&C 14:7 and D&C 6:13).

D&C 76 says all but sons of perdition are heirs to salvation.

It's not a big leap.

The sophistry of quote mining refuses to grasp in one hand every word that has proceeded out of the mouth of God pertaining to what is being considered. This is putting God in a box. You catch him saying both salvation and eternal life are the greatest of all the gifts of God and shut the box. It like you do not want to hear anymore because you have God trapped in his word and go about making hay on your treasure.

This is precisely what you are doing. Or it is what some guy did and handed you his GREAT TEACHINGS to go and make proselytes of all nations.

McGospels have been boxing and selling God with spin to win longer than anyone knows. Interesting how you remove all accountability just like the Evangelicals. Actually you do because you never repent and own your sins and seek for a redemption by faith in Christ Jesus. Not to where Jesus actually visits you with his powers and you are born of him. You breeze right past it while EVs dismiss it all in an instant. Same hocus pocus

[_Nightlion]

Who is you leader? Please, not Christopher N? Oh man!

Three strikes and you're out, Nightlion. Twice in this thread you attempted to use a tactic with which the MDDB has made me quite familiar - trying to paint me as belonging to some "clan", or a "camp", and now you are talking about Christopher N, who I'm guessing is Nemelka. The problem sir, is that you are making this up out of whole cloth.

The only thing I know about Christopher N., provided I've guessed the right person, is what I read from a link maybe a year ago about how he bilked an elderly lady of some reputation out of her money. At least, that's what I recall off the top of my head.

If this fellow has a following on the east coast, I'd be quite surprised.

So.

If you want to discuss specifics and having one's calling and election made sure, we can. I will discuss doctrinal issues. But I'm not going to respond to anymore self-righteous, condescending, nonsense.

eta: I actually agree with your premise about the baptism of fire and we could have an interesting conversation about that if you were willing to stop playing the clairvoyant - which, given your guesses so far, you clearly aren't.

I was not predicting CN only afraid it might be. So who then? The degree of work put in to connect the dots you have chosen is no small thing.

I cannot believe that you agree with my assessment of Baptism of Fire. If you know it by personal experience you would never have been vague about it but declared if first and last. Other than a beginning the BoF is nothing to do with calling and election made sure. If you want the respect of standing upon equal footing you need to bring it solid and not flaky. I have not begun to shake you down if I feel like it. I am not impressed even slightly. And that is not condescending BS. Calling me self-righteous after I have told you the truth about real righteousness is your own condescending nonsense.

[_mercyngrace]

The sophistry of quote mining refuses to grasp in one hand every word that has proceeded out of the mouth of God pertaining to what is being considered. This is putting God in a box. You catch him saying both salvation and eternal life are the greatest of all the gifts of God and shut the box. It like you do not want to hear anymore because you have God trapped in his word and go about making hay on your treasure.

That's why I don't rely on any single source. I just put together 21 pages of a document with scriptures and quotes from various LDS authorities to this end. On this, we agree, quote mining is dangerous.

This is precisely what you are doing. Or it is what some guy did and handed you his GREAT TEACHINGS to go and make proselytes of all nations.

No, it's not. And wrong again about the "some guy". I've had this and other discussions with lots of people online but my near-universalist leanings were the product of studying the D&C.

McGospels have been boxing and selling God with spin to win longer than anyone knows. Interesting how you remove all accountability just like the Evangelicals. Actually you do because you never repent and own your sins and seek for a redemption by faith in Christ Jesus. Not to where Jesus actually visits you with his powers and you are born of him. You breeze right past it while EVs dismiss it all in an instant. Same hocus pocus

Wow. You are seriously batting like a .001, Nightlion.

Accountability doesn't disappear. It is however mitigated by knowledge or lack thereof.

1“You parents of the wilful and the wayward! Don’t give them up. Don’t cast them off. They are not utterly lost. The Shepherd will find his sheep. They were his before they were yours—long before he entrusted them to your care; and you cannot begin to love them as he loves them. They have but strayed in ignorance from the Path of Right, and God is merciful to ignorance. Only the fulness of knowledge brings the fulness of accountability. Our Heavenly Father is far more merciful, infinitely more charitable, than even the best of his servants, and the Everlasting Gospel is mightier in power to save than our narrow finite minds can comprehend” (Elder Orson F. Whitney in Conference Report, Apr. 1929, 110).