Flip Side of the Coin

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_KevinSim
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Re: Flip Side of the Coin

Post by _KevinSim »

Chap wrote:I can't ever imagine deliberately making two contradictory statements to them, and if I did I can't see what possible good it would do.

Chap, I shouldn't be too hard on you; eight or nine years ago I would have thought the same way; but now I see your attitude as incredibly naïve.

Let's see if I can come up with an example that illustrates my point. Assume for a moment that you have a son or daughter who's fifteen, on the verge of learning how to drive. You take your child for a drive and you come up on two signs by the side of the road, one that says, "Keep right except to pass," and the other right next to it that says, "Do not pass." (I actually once saw both of these signs side by side on one stretch of road, so this isn't an artificial example.)

If we assign "pass" to predicate P, and "keep right" to predicate R, then the two signs are R or P and not P. At this point you simply apply a form of modus ponens and conclude from the two signs R. With the two signs together application of the predicate P is redundant.

Now this isn't a contradiction, but it is still a form of the same problem; the problem is that the pass in "Keep right except to pass" and the pass in "Do not pass" don't mean the same thing! The former pass refers to passing on the right side of the central yellow line and the latter pass refers to crossing the central yellow line to pass.

So my question to you, Chap, is, what do you tell your fifteen-year-old about these two signs side by side? Do you tell her/him, it says, "Keep right except to pass," and, "Do not pass," but it really means blah blah blah, and end it at that, or do you tell your fifteen-year-old precisely the same thing and then add, here's an example of someone using the same term in two different places but meaning different things in the different places? In other words, do you give your child just enough information to process the pair of signs, or do you do a more complete job of preparing your child for many cases in the outside world where a term is used twice but means different things each time they're used?

As young children of course we need logical consistency from our parents. It would make no sense to show the mentioned pair of signs to a four-year-old and expect such a young child to understand what they meant. But it is also our job as parents to, with time, prepare our children for what they're going to encounter in the world, and that includes some of the subtleties of the language. If an eighteen-year-old leaves home for college with the impression that every statement anyone makes needs to be mathematically precise, then that eighteen-year-old's parents have done a poor job of parenting.
KevinSim

Reverence the eternal.
_Chap
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Re: Flip Side of the Coin

Post by _Chap »

I have read KevinSim's post carefully.

I really can't see anything in it that subverts the points I made in my post, despite his repeated use of bold italics to aid my feeble understanding. Can anyone else explain what I may have missed?

And I don't mind if KevinSim is as cruelly hard on me as he can be. My withers will remain wholly unwrung.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Drifting
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Re: Flip Side of the Coin

Post by _Drifting »

Chap wrote:I have read KevinSim's post carefully.

Why?

I really can't see anything in it

One rarely does

Can anyone else explain what I may have missed?

Yes, nothing.

And I don't really mind if KevinSim is as cruelly hard on me as he can be. My withers will remain wholly unwrung.


There's a ludwig cartoon in there somewhere...
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_ludwigm
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Re: Flip Side of the Coin

Post by _ludwigm »

Drifting wrote:
And I don't really mind if KevinSim is as cruelly hard on me as he can be. My withers will remain wholly unwrung.


There's a ludwig cartoon in there somewhere...

KevinSim may have twitch of conscience.

Image
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_Hasa Diga Eebowai
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Post by _Hasa Diga Eebowai »

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_Hasa Diga Eebowai
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Post by _Hasa Diga Eebowai »

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_KevinSim
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Re: Flip Side of the Coin

Post by _KevinSim »

Chap wrote:And until at least one deity decides to make it unambiguously clear that he, she, or it is really and reliably there, the human race had better proceed on the assumption that there aren't deities around to help.

The question is, rather, whether it makes any sense to wait for a deity to take the place that humanity has to fill. The work of humanity has to go forth, and who better to carry it out than the people who will bear the consequences of it not being done?

Humanity's need for God isn't going to stop just because there isn't currently a God to fill it.

I have no problem whatsoever with "the people who will bear the consequences" stepping up and doing some serious long range planning. But the simple fact is that those people don't know how to preserve forever some good things. And it's pretty apparent to me that if nobody ever finds out how to preserve forever some good things, then no good things are going to get preserved forever; all good things will eventually die out.

We need to recognize that we're not just responsible for the benefit of this generation, or the next, or the next. There's nothing wrong with concentrating on those three generations, and trying to do as much good for them as we can. But I'm firmly convinced that our consciences demand that we spend some amount of time on a regular basis (even as little as a few seconds every month or so) thinking about what we would have to do to benefit the whole human race, including all of the descendants of those currently living.

My belief in God is a direct result of my recognition that I'm incapable of planning the welfare of the whole human race. Chap, I'm not saying that you need to believe in a deity like mine, but I'm saying that if you don't then you need to step up and accept responsibility for the entirety of the human race as I said.
KevinSim

Reverence the eternal.
_KevinSim
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Re: Flip Side of the Coin

Post by _KevinSim »

Themis wrote:If God doesn't exists there is no work of God.

The job implies the job holder?

I don't think that's true. It's possible to recognize that something must be done, before someone arises that's capable of doing it.
KevinSim

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_KevinSim
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Re: Flip Side of the Coin

Post by _KevinSim »

Themis wrote:Then give your own example on what you mean.

I already did. I said that in common language every once in a while someone will ask someone else a yes or no question, and the latter will respond, "Yes and no." Have you never heard someone give that answer?

Now if every term in a natural language was rigorously defined, then there wouldn't be room for an answer of, "Yes and no"; such an answer would be inconsistent and a contradiction. But terms in natural languages aren't rigorously defined. The answer, "Yes and no," means that the answer is yes if the terms in the question mean one thing, and the answer is no if those terms mean something else. In that case the answer, "Yes and no," is exactly the truth, even though such an answer in a mathematical setting would indeed be inconsistent.
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KevinSim

Reverence the eternal.
_KevinSim
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Re: Flip Side of the Coin

Post by _KevinSim »

Themis wrote:
KevinSim wrote:Now, are these three assertions true about the deity Roman Catholics, Evangelicals, and Methodists believe in?


I don't believe their assertions are true, but I thought I was clear from the beginning.

Okay, this time I wasn't completely clear what I meant, so I'll list them again.

In short I asserted (1) that God as understood by Roman Catholics, Evangelicals, and Methodists "has the power to cause souls to cease to exist", (2) that that God "also chooses not to use that power to put the unsaved out of their misery", and (3) that "the souls of the unsaved will suffer unbearable agony from the point of their death for the rest of eternity".

Do you agree that if the Roman Catholics, Evangelicals, and Methodists are right, that these three statements describe their deity?

Themis wrote:Yes the LDS God has much more evidence against it then these others. You are making the mistake of thinking their assertions of the attributes are evidence against their God's existence.

No, I just didn't realize we were talking about a deity's existence; you said "evidence against it," like you did just now; that didn't strike me the same way as it would have if you'd said "evidence against it's existence."

Themis wrote:This is due to your world view and not actual evidence.

If we can't evaluate whether a deity is good or not based on things like that deity's treatment of the unsaved that I mentioned, then how in the world do we know whether or not that deity is good? What good is the existence of an allegedly supernatural being if one doesn't know whether or not it is good? The God described up above, associated with the Roman Catholics, Evangelicals, and Methodists, is a monster, and I don't see how anybody can in clear conscience worship it even if it does exist.

Themis wrote:The same would stand for LDS assertions of God's attributes.

The Roman Catholic, Evangelical, and Methodist deity causes infinite damage to the souls of the unsaved. What attributes of God as believed by Latter-day Saints cause infinite damage?
KevinSim

Reverence the eternal.
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