?'s for Kishkumen

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_Yoda

Re: ?'s for Kishkumen

Post by _Yoda »

Kishkumen wrote:
Nomomo wrote:My objective was not to "judge" you. You may think me an ass if you wish, but I never thought for a moment you would answer the questions I posed. I was curious in how you would respond. After all, we both know what your answers to those questions would be were you to give them ~_-


Huh. Well, let me add this, if it helps. Ideally, I don't want to engage anyone in such questions. Who I am is determined by what I do, not by hollow affirmations. Anyone can say, "I believe," or, "I know." I have seen a young man cry as he bore his testimony just hours after sexually assaulting a friend of mine. I don't know what to make of that. All I can say is that affirmations of this kind are worth spit to me.

I endeavor to live the two great commandments. I am a long way from perfecting the art of keeping them.


You do a pretty great job of being a good friend. :biggrin:

Thanks for being mine. :mrgreen:
_Yoda

Re: ?'s for Kishkumen

Post by _Yoda »

Morley wrote:
zeezrom wrote:Thank you. And to be clear, I mean that I want to stop looking at the church like a Sith: in absolutes or black & white. I want to see the good along with the bad. I want to stop being afraid that the organization will influence my children the way I *let* it influence me. It really hasn't had that much influence on me. I am beginning to realize it now. My circle of narrow-minded and like-minded friends had a huge impact on me. My own interpretation of things had a huge influence. My parent's silence and submission to the church had an influence on me. The church itself had less influence on me.

My children don't have to go through the damned shaming I went through. They don't have to worry that they aren't worthy of heaven. They don't have to believe God is always disappointed in them. They don't have to feel that everyone else around them is more worthy than them. They don't have to have any of this, even if we stay involved.

This is a revelation. It is buried in some obscure thread on MDB. But it is a big revelation for me.

My gawd, I love this.

Me, too! :biggrin:

It is interesting to note that you felt that God was always disappointed in you, and that you were always worried about being worthy for heaven. I also grew up feeling this way...not by anything my parents taught me, but, like you said, by my reaction to what was taught in Church during my era. I always felt like it was more of a curse than a blessing that I was born in the Church. It seemed like converts got all the breaks. Those who went through this life never finding the Church would have the opportunity to hear the gospel in the next life, and receive it. And, let's face it...who is going to deny it then? They would have been able to life their live the way they wanted to...find the gospel in the next life, repent, be forgiven and receive exaltation. Those of us who were born in the Church had the responsibility to be the example. We were given the truth here, on this earth. We are damned if we don't spread the word of the gospel to all of our neighbors. We are damned when we sin. Our Heavenly Father is much more disappointed with us when we fall off the straight and narrow path because we were blessed to KNOW the gospel, to be born in the Church. And, even if we try as hard as we can, we are likely to fail. And where does that leave us? The ultimate punishment...without our family in the next life. That is a huge responsibility to lay on a little kid.
_mercyngrace
_Emeritus
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Re: ?'s for Kishkumen

Post by _mercyngrace »

Cont'd response to HDE,

I think the problem is that the words that the LDS Church employs have different meanings to their common usage.


That is definitely an issue and it's compounded by the fact that we use the same words and phrases to express different concepts which means that within the church, individuals read the same scriptures and hear the same discourses differently. The bigger problem, I believe, has been the attempt to correlate all of these differences out of the faith. A rich body of religious thought that ought to appear richer as we mature and experience life, seems to remain, for some members, a basic step by step path to heaven without nuance and without mystery. Our approach in recent years has been very Western. All bullet points and no beauty.

Salvation, in LDS scripture is defined in the same exact way as eternal life, that is, the "greatest of all the gifts of God" (D&C 6:13, D&C 14:7). Where the water gets muddy is in D&C 132. The word exaltation is contrasted with the word saved in a way that is unique to that set of verses alone. To be blunt, I think the issue is that most people read the scriptures through the lens of correlated church materials rather than independently and they end up with a whole lot of proof texts that may have benefit as a type of modern midrash, but prohibits the text from eliminating contradictions.

Take section 76. We teach final judgment as preceding these telestial, terrestrial, and celestial spheres and yet section 76 clearly has individuals divided into these groupings, ministering to each other (prior to judgment) until all are eventually resurrected. We teach the cart before the horse. At least I did as a young missionary with my laminated cut-outs.

The scriptures are much more illustrative. Scripturally, it is the work of the Father to exalt (Phil 2:9) while it is the work of Christ to save (D&C 18:23 among a zillion others). The Holy Ghost is tasked with ministering to telestial beings (D&C 76:86). The great work of salvation then lies predominantly in the terrestrial world. Once that empties, all are spotless, and handed over to the Father (D&C 76:106-107), the work of exaltation begins. Spirit, blood, water; purify, justify, sanctify; convert, save, exalt - three realms, three labors, three laws we learn to abide in a progression that ultimately leads through the veil - and still we place perfectly labeled circles of construction paper on the table as optional outcomes rather than an integral part of the process of becoming godly.

The whole purpose of the temple is to show our progression and to turn our hearts toward both the fathers and our fathers. Not to establish a country club. The work of the gods has always been communal. Every Sunday, we put the bread in our mouths and the cup to our lips, offering prayer for all who partake. Inside the temple, we stand in for people we may not know, and in symbolic procession march them into God's kingdom.

Several LDS leaders have acknowledged that the gospel will be received almost without exception beyond the grave. If that is the doctrine, then the blessings are nearly unfailingly inclusive. Even Joseph advised that we "use a little wisdom, and seal all we can".

I do appreciate what you are saying about inclusivity in the rituals. However, I think the inclusivity of the process is more significant that the exclusive policy regarding the proxy. That all are expected to pass this way eventually, overshadows that some will not engage in the ritual reenactment of a plan, in which they already play a part.

The second anointing is but another symbolic act. Is there real power to be attained through the ordinance? A better question is perhaps, do the uninitiated (in terms of the ritual alone) lack access to the power of God? Are they somehow cut off from their chance at entering His kingdom and inheriting all He has, according to LDS doctrine? The answer to the last two questions is a resounding NO. Perhaps then their decrease in frequency is directly proportional to our growth in understanding. Whatever the reason, I see the changes in the temple over time as moving in the right direction and I wouldn't be surprised to see further changes.

I don't expect entrance to necessarily become less inclusive but I do expect more and more members will come to understand the symbolic nature of the rituals and ordinances and leave the temple with a broader understanding of the scope of salvation and a clearer vision of the love and compassion of a God who's charity never faileth.
"In my more rebellious days I tried to doubt the existence of the sacred, but the universe kept dancing and life kept writing poetry across my life." ~ David N. Elkins, 1998, Beyond Religion, p. 81
_mercyngrace
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Re: ?'s for Kishkumen

Post by _mercyngrace »

consiglieri wrote:
But I couldn't resist beginning with these words:

"I feel I should open this class like a temple session by saying if any of you want to leave, now's your chance."

True story.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri


FYI: I will be stealing this. :)

Also - if you and Kish were team teaching, I would never muster the courage to go beyond clearing my throat at the podium. Talk about being completely outclassed! I'd be too in awe to speak...
"In my more rebellious days I tried to doubt the existence of the sacred, but the universe kept dancing and life kept writing poetry across my life." ~ David N. Elkins, 1998, Beyond Religion, p. 81
_consiglieri
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Re: ?'s for Kishkumen

Post by _consiglieri »

mercyngrace wrote:
Also - if you and Kish were team teaching, I would never muster the courage to go beyond clearing my throat at the podium. Talk about being completely outclassed! I'd be too in awe to speak...


Balderdash, my good MG!

You've more class in your little finger than I have in my giant blue head.

I would travel a fur piece to hear you teach.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_Kishkumen
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Re: ?'s for Kishkumen

Post by _Kishkumen »

mercyngrace wrote:Also - if you and Kish were team teaching, I would never muster the courage to go beyond clearing my throat at the podium. Talk about being completely outclassed! I'd be too in awe to speak...


Come now, mercyngrace, you are amazing. I always feel enriched when reading one of your long posts wherein you lay out your views on spiritual topics.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Hasa Diga Eebowai
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Re: ?'s for Kishkumen

Post by _Hasa Diga Eebowai »

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