The Four Universalist and The Apocalrock

[_Nightlion]

The mistake in Universalism or the logical fallacy is in thinking the prime directive of all things is a focus upon US and not a focus upon God.

Moses 1:39 succinctly explains what His focus is.

Certainly a perfect God knows how to get His work done.

Wink all you like, and perhaps your IQ is higher than mine.
'cause I got gifts and powers whereas all you got is a journey.

Moses 1:
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Moses 4:
1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

John 12:
28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

We can see clearly that the prime directive in all eternity is the glory of God. Mankind is a means to glorify
God. That is the truth. And you probably could not help but choke back the tears when Satan bears testimony to Universalism.......could ya? Ain't I a devil?

[_Nightlion]

I own an understanding of how one goes from one glory to a higher but not without the ultimate sacrifice to commence. MOST, in my opinion do eventually opt for it. The lower kingdoms are not a dump heap where the majority go and are added upon each generation of the heavens. I see it as clearing out and probably the sooner the better as to make it back from around the corner of the mix of light and truth from which we are all taken.

It sounds like you agree with MnG more than I do then. So why are you picking a fight with her?

A little matter of the truth. Is it this way or is it that way? Any good mechanic is going to insist upon doing things the way they actually work. Lots of stander arounders have good ideas and some of them nearly correct. And if ya got to teach those standing around it helps to be curt about getting to the facts. Don't want to step on toes but all the noses are leaning in on the work and so the toes follow.

[_Valentinus]

Ya know...I don't agree much with anything you have said since my posting here. But I will admit that I like what you have said above and it will probably give me a deeper appreciation for your posting on this board. I will probably never agree with you but I like you nonetheless.

I will always appreciate that. Thanks

Of course...my pleasure.

[_Tobin]

A little matter of the truth. Is it this way or is it that way? Any good mechanic is going to insist upon doing things the way they actually work. Lots of stander arounders have good ideas and some of them nearly correct. And if ya got to teach those standing around it helps to be curt about getting to the facts. Don't want to step on toes but all the noses are leaning in on the work and so the toes follow.

So basically you don't like MnG's position because of how she goes about it - not because of what the final result is (which you agree with). Fascinating.

[Guest]

Wink all you like, and perhaps your IQ is higher than mine.
'cause I got gifts and powers whereas all you got is a journey.

Moses 1:
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Moses 4:
1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

John 12:
28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

We can see clearly that the prime directive in all eternity is the glory of God. Mankind is a means to glorify
God. That is the truth. And you probably could not help but choke back the tears when Satan bears testimony to Universalism.......could ya? Ain't I a devil?

I don't know many Christian Universalists who claim that we don't have free agency. Most believe that God is able to save everyone without compromising our freedom. If it is in our best interest to follow God (and it is) then we will (given enough time) eventually be brought freely into God's will for us. But ultimately the work of doing so is God's so that we can't glory in our own righteousness even when we choose to do what God wants us to do. We will get there through Christ's atonement and God's patience not because of our own righteousness.

[_mercyngrace]

Wink all you like, and perhaps your IQ is higher than mine.
'cause I got gifts and powers whereas all you got is a journey.

Moses 1:
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Moses 4:
1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

John 12:
28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

We can see clearly that the prime directive in all eternity is the glory of God. Mankind is a means to glorify
God. That is the truth. And you probably could not help but choke back the tears when Satan bears testimony to Universalism.......could ya? Ain't I a devil?

That's good, Nightlion. Now what is His glory? Same verse I cited as His work...

Satan doesn't bear testimony of universal salvation, by the way, he bears testimony of salvation without repentance. That distinction, no matter how oft repeated, seems to keep getting lost on you.

That you find this doctrine doesn't fit with your interpretation of scripture is fine. But, as likable as you seem, I'm not interested in any more snide inferences about what may or may not bring a tear to my eye or any other of you explicit and implicit insults, including who you think speaks to me.

I wish you well, Nightlion.

[_Nightlion]

A little matter of the truth. Is it this way or is it that way? Any good mechanic is going to insist upon doing things the way they actually work. Lots of stander arounders have good ideas and some of them nearly correct. And if ya got to teach those standing around it helps to be curt about getting to the facts. Don't want to step on toes but all the noses are leaning in on the work and so the toes follow.

So basically you don't like MnG's position because of how she goes about it - not because of what the final result is (which you agree with). Fascinating.

The 'going about it' is the only way possible for God to remain consistent. She can bring fairness together from all eternity never will get a critical mass. It can not take and no power means nothing happening. It disconnects from the atonement, from mercy and from grace. NPsI It disconnects from judgment, justice and eternal law.
And that is the sad disappointment in all evil ways that contradict God.

[_Nightlion]

That's good, Nightlion. Now what is His glory? Same verse I cited as His work...

You are not seeing the prime directive, the axis mundi is that it is HIS glory and not ours. Big difference. Gigantic distinction as to what can be tolerated. We are the weak link. To us is grace and mercy and revelations and teachings and unions and family and progress and at the end of it all realizing how and by what power we moved along our path shall we glorify ourselves in how humble and teachable and meek and benign we learned how to become........?........uh.......no.........we will rejoice and glory in our Jesus and in his God our Father.
I think you got the upper hand in talking down. Of course Universal Salvation is of the devil. Give me a break!
Do you need that I fire off a charge and bring down an avalanche of scripture to bury you?

What did Christ say after teaching perfectly clearly his way..(3 Nephi 11)....anything more or less comes of evil.
So it's either his way or the highway, Sis. You already chose the highway....the journey. Peace.

[_Nightlion]

Wink all you like, and perhaps your IQ is higher than mine.
'cause I got gifts and powers whereas all you got is a journey.

Moses 1:
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Moses 4:
1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

John 12:
28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

We can see clearly that the prime directive in all eternity is the glory of God. Mankind is a means to glorify
God. That is the truth. And you probably could not help but choke back the tears when Satan bears testimony to Universalism.......could ya? Ain't I a devil?

I don't know many Christian Universalists who claim that we don't have free agency. Most believe that God is able to save everyone without compromising our freedom. If it is in our best interest to follow God (and it is) then we will (given enough time) eventually be brought freely into God's will for us. But ultimately the work of doing so is God's so that we can't glory in our own righteousness even when we choose to do what God wants us to do. We will get there through Christ's atonement and God's patience not because of our own righteousness.

I got it now. This is the illumination I sought for. Universalist have simply overlaid EVOLUTION on top of salvation. Their acceptance of evolution as the one true SOURCE of all that is; Trump's God's sovereignty. They trust in the slow grind of the inevitability of the only reality there is and that is things must evolve. It does not matter that they play fast and loose with truth or use terms like God and Christ and atonement and redemption and whatever, these means all are justified in the obvious triumph of evolution.
Got it! NO? Oh dang!

[_Boilermaker]

Sorry Nightlion. I'm not a real believer in evolution. We're not going to change who we are -- with God's help and through Christ's atonement we are going to change how we live.