John Gee's FAIR Presentation

[Guest]

Did I misunderstand or did Gee say that the scroll is actually shorter than Cook/Smith calculated it to be (314 cm vs 513 cm)? Is that right? In other words, there was even less room on the scroll for the Book of Abraham, then what Cook/Smith calculated. Didn't Gee just concede the point that the scroll was too small to hold the Book of Abraham?

Also, it looks like Gee is shifting tactics with this argument: "according to a newfound non-Mormon eyewitness account, the Book of Abraham seems to have been on a very long and completely intact roll and therefore not even on the same scroll as the fragments we have. And this in turn means that none of the fragments of the Joseph Smith Papyri that we have is from the same scroll as the Book of Abraham and if none of the fragments that we currently have comes from the same scroll as the Book of Abraham then the fact that none of the texts on them matches the Book of Abraham is not a problem."

Does anyone have any idea what source he is talking about?

[_Kishkumen]

Did I misunderstand or did Gee say that the scroll is actually shorter than Cook/Smith calculated it to be (314 cm vs 513 cm)? Is that right?

Also, it looks like Gee is shifting tactics with this argument: "according to a newfound non-Mormon eyewitness account, the Book of Abraham seems to have been on a very long and completely intact roll and therefore not even on the same scroll as the fragments we have. And this in turn means that none of the fragments of the Joseph Smith Papyri that we have is from the same scroll as the Book of Abraham and if none of the fragments that we currently have comes from the same scroll as the Book of Abraham then the fact that none of the texts on them matches the Book of Abraham is not a problem."

Does anyone have any idea what source he is talking about?

A Multiplication of Missing Scrolls and Misapplied Math: Gee's Mormon Apologetics Gone Amock

[Guest]

I've diss'ed this line of research in the past but having worked my way through this thread I understand better the importance of the line of work Chris and Cook are doing.

So good luck, good research, hang in there and thanks all for the careful explanations.

PS. @ Kish 3) "the word "translation" (translatio-removing from one place to another) has a theological significance that is more akin to the passing of something through the veil than #2b"

That is a very interesting approach.

[_dblagent007]

Did I misunderstand or did Gee say that the scroll is actually shorter than Cook/Smith calculated it to be (314 cm vs 513 cm)? Is that right? In other words, there was even less room on the scroll for the Book of Abraham, then what Cook/Smith calculated. Didn't Gee just concede the point that the scroll was too small to hold the Book of Abraham?

Nevermind, I read it again. I misunderstood Gee.

[_Kishkumen]

I've diss'ed this line of research in the past but having worked my way through this thread I understand better the importance of the line of research Chris and Cook are doing.

So good luck, good research, hang in there and thanks all for the careful explanations.

I still can't get over the fact that a missing scroll proves exactly nothing. Same with a long missing fragment. So much energy invested in demonstrating nothing. It boggles the mind.

[_Bob Loblaw]

I still can't get over the fact that a missing scroll proves exactly nothing. Same with a long missing fragment. So much energy invested in demonstrating nothing. It boggles the mind.

The whole point is to shift the source to something that doesn't exist and therefore make it impossible to discuss the validity of the translation. The problem for the mopologist is that we have the facsimiles and their bogus translations, and we have the mess that is the text of the Book of Abraham. You're right. None of this matter because the book can already be shown to be a fraud.

[_lulu]

I've diss'ed this line of research in the past but having worked my way through this thread I understand better the importance of the line of research Chris and Cook are doing.

So good luck, good research, hang in there and thanks all for the careful explanations.

I still can't get over the fact that a missing scroll proves exactly nothing. Same with a long missing fragment. So much energy invested in demonstrating nothing. It boggles the mind.

But if Gee is going to put it out there, someone needs to check it.

And see my PS addition above.

I can't decide if the church would be better off with someone like you doing insightful and pursausive theology or humanity would be better off without you doing it and the church dying sooner. I'm so indecisive. lol.

[_Kishkumen]

Oh, I get it, this is an example of doctrinal creation and indoctrination, not scholarship....

Therefore they think that all they have to do is translate the Document of Breathings Made by Isis and that it will convince Latter-Day Saints to give up their religion because they have demonstrated that what they think we believe is not true. And all they’ve shown is what they think we believe isn’t true, because it isn’t what we believe. What they really demonstrate when they do this is that they don’t understand the argument.

[_Kishkumen]

I still can't get over the fact that a missing scroll proves exactly nothing. Same with a long missing fragment. So much energy invested in demonstrating nothing. It boggles the mind.

The whole point is to shift the source to something that doesn't exist and therefore make it impossible to discuss the validity of the translation. The problem for the mopologist is that we have the facsimiles and their bogus translations, and we have the mess that is the text of the Book of Abraham. You're right. None of this matter because the book can already be shown to be a fraud.

Yes, I get that, but, as I said, it demonstrates nothing. The hurdle to get over in moving from missing papyrus to Book of Abraham on said papyrus is Everest.

[_Cicero]

Oh, I get it, this is an example of doctrinal creation and indoctrination, not scholarship....

Therefore they think that all they have to do is translate the Document of Breathings Made by Isis and that it will convince Latter-Day Saints to give up their religion because they have demonstrated that what they think we believe is not true. And all they’ve shown is what they think we believe isn’t true, because it isn’t what we believe. What they really demonstrate when they do this is that they don’t understand the argument.

Silly me for ever believing what Joseph said about the Book of Abraham and the facsimiles literally.