The Power of Decernment fails AGAIN X 2 (links)

[_The Mighty Builder]

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=216249 ... d=queue-12

The man was serving as branch president of an LDS Spanish-speaking branch in Midvale and was released from his church position after the incident, LDS church officials confirmed.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=216241 ... id=queue-6

Both women said they were referred to Tenorio by their LDS bishop and their first few sessions with Tenorio also involved their husbands. Later, they said, Tenorio told them he needed to meet with them "one on one."

What good is Mormon Jesus if S/HE can't do s*** to protect the members

[_bcspace]

So you believe the power of discernment removes agency? That's not LDS doctrine.

[_Equality]

So you believe the power of discernment removes agency? That's not LDS doctrine.

I think the argument is this: the LDS church claims that leaders of the church have the gift of discernment, which is a spiritual gift fromt he Holy Ghost that enables them to know who it is the Lord would like to serve in callings in the church. Stake Presidents, who call Bishops and Branch Presidents by revelation, use this gift of discernment to identify and call the men Jesus wants to serve in those positions. Presumably, Jesus would not reveal to one of his chosen priesthood leaders to call men who would violently attack members of the flock over whom they would be presiding. Either Jesus didn't know who would be a good Bishop or Branch President in these cases, or he told the SP to call these guys despite knowing that they were violent sexual predators. After the men were called, and the leaders to whom they reported were daily calling on the Lord in prayer and supplication and receiving inspiration and revelation to fulfill their priesthood duties, the Holy Ghost either told them that there were predators serving in church leadership positions and they did nothing to remove them, or the Holy Ghost simply neglected to give them that information. It appears that having a direct line to God to for filling church leadership positions is not any more effective at filtering out the bad guys than just relying on good old human reason and intuition (along with perhaps a criminal background check).

[_sock puppet]

So you believe the power of discernment removes agency? That's not LDS doctrine.

False dichotomy.

You know better, bcspace. But in the grand tradition of the Interpreters (the recently booted old guard at NAMIRS), better to put up a logically-weak diversion than wrestle with the problem. Power of discernment does not impinge upon the bishop's/SP's decisions whether he will personally follow commandments or not. Power of discernment suggests that the holder has some insights that the average person does not. There are so many misfires in Mormonism, you'd have to say that elohim, jehovah and HG are the gang that couldn't shoot straight.

C'mon, bcspace, you can do better. If not, you know in your heart that the religion you're defending is a crock of s.

[_bcspace]

So you believe the power of discernment removes agency? That's not LDS doctrine.

False dichotomy.

No. The reality is that agency plays a huge role; the decision to use it, the worthiness to use it, God's willingness (God's own agency) to reveal it to you, etc.

All these and more are doctrinal factors in the exercise of any spiritual gifts/priesthood powers.

[_moksha]

Builder, this has more to do with the nature of mental illness than any power of discernment.

My prayers go out to the girl, her brother and the family that they can heal from this trespass.

[_sock puppet]

So you believe the power of discernment removes agency? That's not LDS doctrine.

False dichotomy.

No. The reality is that agency plays a huge role; the decision to use it, the worthiness to use it, God's willingness (God's own agency) to reveal it to you, etc.

All these and more are doctrinal factors in the exercise of any spiritual gifts/priesthood powers.

So, you've just eviscerated any reason why anyone should do as the bishop or SP might say. After all, just free agency. Now, let's look at this notion of getting personal spiritual confirmation for directives. Why have a bishop or SP in the loop? Moroni 10 just says study it out any matter in your own mind, come to a decision and spirit will give you a thumbs up (bosom warming) or not. Well, then the whole bureaucracy just went tits up dead, unnecessary, superfluous except as a mean to collect tithes and elevate men as thtey climb the LDS leadership ladder.

Can't rely on what the bishop or SP says, because of his free agency not to do what the spirit informs him. But elohim is going to reward these ward/stake members for following a man exercising his free agency over the members doing what the spirit tells them directly? The Mormon house of cards has long since collapsed.

[_sock puppet]

Builder, this has more to do with the nature of mental illness than any power of discernment.

Is mental illness stronger than the divine power of discernment?

[_Themis]

So you believe the power of discernment removes agency? That's not LDS doctrine.

I think the argument is this: the LDS church claims that leaders of the church have the gift of discernment, which is a spiritual gift fromt he Holy Ghost that enables them to know who it is the Lord would like to serve in callings in the church. Stake Presidents, who call Bishops and Branch Presidents by revelation, use this gift of discernment to identify and call the men Jesus wants to serve in those positions. Presumably, Jesus would not reveal to one of his chosen priesthood leaders to call men who would violently attack members of the flock over whom they would be presiding. Either Jesus didn't know who would be a good Bishop or Branch President in these cases, or he told the SP to call these guys despite knowing that they were violent sexual predators. After the men were called, and the leaders to whom they reported were daily calling on the Lord in prayer and supplication and receiving inspiration and revelation to fulfill their priesthood duties, the Holy Ghost either told them that there were predators serving in church leadership positions and they did nothing to remove them, or the Holy Ghost simply neglected to give them that information. It appears that having a direct line to God to for filling church leadership positions is not any more effective at filtering out the bad guys than just relying on good old human reason and intuition (along with perhaps a criminal background check).

It's even much worse when you have someone called as patriarch who was abusing boys years before getting called. This calling also has to be approved by SL.

[_Equality]

Moroni 10 just says study it out any matter in your own mind, come to a decision and spirit will give you a thumbs up (bosom warming) or not. Well, then the whole bureaucracy just went tits up dead, unnecessary, superfluous except as a mean to collect tithes and elevate men as thtey climb the LDS leadership ladder.

Did we just find common ground for Tobin and sock puppet?