Hamblin's Creed

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_Cicero
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Re: Hamblin's Creed

Post by _Cicero »

malkie wrote:Just to play with the numbers a little, let's assume that "the vast majority" means about 90%, and that about 50% of members are active.

Even if all of the active members meet the criteria, you would have to believe that 80% of the inactive members (some of whom are likely to be dead) believe in the articles of faith.

I find it difficult to imagine that this could be true.

Any suggestions?


I have no proof, but I highly doubt that is true. At least 1 million of the members are lost and probably don't even self-identify as Mormon. Over the half the Church is inactive, and I find it hard to believe the "vast majority" of them adhere to those believes, but I could be wrong. I have middle-aged siblings that have been inactive since they were teenagers and they still tell me that they have a testimony.
_Sethbag
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Re: Hamblin's Creed

Post by _Sethbag »

Cicero wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:Sethbag, I think your views on doctrine may owe a lot to two factors: the upswing of religious fundamentalism in the US, and the long reach of McConkie's shadow.


I agree, and I think the latter is especially important. Correlation played a part as well. As I child growing up in the Church in 80s, Mormon Doctrine was THE "go to" source for teachers (both in Church lessons and in seminary) outside of correlated lesson manuals. I was amazed to find out as an adult that its initial publication was highly controversial.


I could agree with you and Kish if the things in Hamblin's creed were things like polygamy, the Word of Wisdom, and so forth. Let's call them ancillary issues. But they aren't. To revisit (in abbreviated form):

1. There is a God.
2. Jesus is the Christ...
3. Joseph Smith is a true prophet...
4. Thomas S. Monson is a true prophet...

These aren't ancillary issues. I think this breakdown really does hit all or most of the "must have" truths for Mormonism to be any semblance of what it claims to be. Polygamy or the Word of Wisdom aren't necessary for Mormonism to be the Kingdom of God on Earth, but the existence of God is, Joseph Smith's legitimacy as God's viceroy on Earth is, and Joseph Smith's successors being likewise legitimate right-hand men to God on Earth is too.

I think some of you are so interested in rejecting the concept of orthodoxy that you miss Hamblin's point. But, considering just these four specific claims, how can you really assert that a person can meaningfully be "Mormon" while not believing them? Unless "Mormon", for you, has become a cultural or ethnic identity as much as it is a religious one, like "Jew" has become. I don't think it has risen to that for Hamblin, and I don't think I'm there yet either.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Sethbag
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Re: Hamblin's Creed

Post by _Sethbag »

I do believe a person can reasonably be "Mormon", in the religious sense, whether they believe Noah's Flood was global or local. I also believe a person can reasonably be "Mormon" whether they subscribe to the Missing Scroll theory of the Book of Abraham, or the Catalyst theory, or, most popularly, don't know jack crap about the Book of Abraham and don't care to know either.

I think a person can reasonably be "Mormon" whether they sport one earring or two, shop on Sundays from time to time, or indulge in the occasional beer while fishing (poor guy only brought one...). There's certainly more heterodoxy in Mormonism than Hamblin would probably like to admit, or than I would have admitted in my TBM days.

I recall being appalled when, growing up, I went to visit a Mormon friend of mine on Sunday afternoon and his family took me on a tour of some local outdoor museum thing that we had to pay to get in to. It was an eye-opener to me that all Mormons didn't observe the sabbath the way my family did, and I was certain they were probably wrong. Yeah yeah, I get it.

But re-read Hamblin's short list, and come back and argue to me that Mormon, as a religious identity, can rationally be used by a member of LDS who doesn't believe those things. By the way, I am not saying other LDS branches can't access the word under different definitions. That's a different discussion.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_lulu
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Re: Hamblin's Creed

Post by _lulu »

Sethbag wrote:can rationally be used


What part of

"No True Scotsman!"



don't you understand?
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Hamblin's Creed

Post by _Kishkumen »

Sethbag wrote:I could agree with you and Kish if the things in Hamblin's creed were things like polygamy, the Word of Wisdom, and so forth. Let's call them ancillary issues. But they aren't. To revisit (in abbreviated form):

1. There is a God.
2. Jesus is the Christ...
3. Joseph Smith is a true prophet...
4. Thomas S. Monson is a true prophet...

These aren't ancillary issues. I think this breakdown really does hit all or most of the "must have" truths for Mormonism to be any semblance of what it claims to be. Polygamy or the Word of Wisdom aren't necessary for Mormonism to be the Kingdom of God on Earth, but the existence of God is, Joseph Smith's legitimacy as God's viceroy on Earth is, and Joseph Smith's successors being likewise legitimate right-hand men to God on Earth is too.

I think some of you are so interested in rejecting the concept of orthodoxy that you miss Hamblin's point. But, considering just these four specific claims, how can you really assert that a person can meaningfully be "Mormon" while not believing them? Unless "Mormon", for you, has become a cultural or ethnic identity as much as it is a religious one, like "Jew" has become. I don't think it has risen to that for Hamblin, and I don't think I'm there yet either.


Hey, Sethbag-

I don't think that I missed his point so much as I disagreed with its underlying premise, which you appear to take for granted as legitimate. In the underlined passages of your post, I see a connection drawn between two things: 1) the must have truths for Mormonism to be what it claims to be; and 2) that those who call themselves Mormon must *believe* them. First of all, Hamblin's post is about the four things a person must believe in order to consider themselves Mormon; it is not about the four pillars of Mormonism's truth. Those are different things.

And when it comes to religious identity, it is simply stupid to claim that you can arbitrarily define what makes a person "X" by isolating a handful of beliefs and dictating that they are the sine qua non of a particular identity. That is what I call a "prescriptive" formula, as opposed to a "descriptive" formula of identity. Hamblin has decided that, in the face of a John Dehlin testifying at Sunstone that he would like to believe "X" and hopes it is true, but isn't sure, Hamblin wants to say, "See, I told you this guy ain't Mormon. Here's the rubric he doesn't live up to." It is a power move, and one that Hamblin has no authority to make.

Moreover, Hamblin doesn't just say what he thinks you *must* believe, but he also spells out, at least for a couple of the "beliefs," *how* you must believe them. So, this isn't just about accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet, but accepting his particular definition of prophet over others; because he feels that it is his business to tell everyone else how they should believe that Joseph Smith is a prophet. And that is precisely where he is wrong.

We all understand that a religious community will have its set of principles, propositions, faith claims, narratives, and what have you. Each person who is born into or chooses to participate in a community will interact with those things differently than others. It can't possibly be the case that all participants believe all of them, or believe in them in the same way. The minute a Hamblin gets up to tell you precisely what and how you should believe to consider yourself part of the community, he is, I think, stepping way out of bounds. Or, rather, he is blustering, and the more fool you if you give credence to his hot air.

Alternatively, you can take his bit as one person's opinion to think about. You can look at Hamblin as an apologist, who is concerned about his Church, and who approaches that intellectually by wondering out loud what is essential in LDS identity. This is his answer. Some folks may not agree with him. No one is obliged to take his views and internalize them such that, based on his criteria, they suddenly decide they are not really Mormons and leave. I think this is what Robert F. Smith was concerned about in his response to Bill's piece.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Tobin
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Re: Hamblin's Creed

Post by _Tobin »

I have lots of problems with Hamblin's criteria.

1. There is a God.

Unless one is born again and have experienced God, I don't think many Mormons know if there is or is not a God. I doubt many cultural Mormons (born into the Mormon Church) know this and they are simply Mormon because it is their culture. Not because they know God.

2. Jesus is the Christ.

Again, the same problem as above. Unless one has a personal witness of Jesus Christ, they are unlikely to really know him. Many Mormons are committed to families, urban legends, and a fanciful version of Christ that fits their political or ideological identity. This version of Christ is often exclusionary (of everyone but Mormons) and fraught with problems.

3. Joseph Smith is a true prophet.

Without a of witness of God and God telling a Mormon-in-name that this is true, this is just something that is just assumed. When many Mormons are confronted with the difficult issues surrounding Joseph Smith's history and behavior, they often downplay it or pretend those claims are not true. Many a Mormon-in-name-only has become an ex-Mormon when their false conceptions about Joseph Smith are shattered and the reality hits that he was an extremely flawed individual (like most of us).

4. Thomas S Monson is a true prophet.

I've yet to hear him say he's seen the Lord, spoken with the Lord, or heard him prophecy or reveal anything. If he is a prophet in the sense the Joseph Smith was a prophet, what is he waiting for? I think many Mormons just assume he's a prophet because he's the leader of the Church. But, again, I think it is merely a title and being a prophet is something God must call you to and it should be easily manifest in what you say.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_malkie
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Re: Hamblin's Creed

Post by _malkie »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sethbag wrote:I could agree with you and Kish if the things in Hamblin's creed were things like polygamy, the Word of Wisdom, and so forth. Let's call them ancillary issues. But they aren't. To revisit (in abbreviated form):

1. There is a God.
2. Jesus is the Christ...
3. Joseph Smith is a true prophet...
4. Thomas S. Monson is a true prophet...

These aren't ancillary issues. I think this breakdown really does hit all or most of the "must have" truths for Mormonism to be any semblance of what it claims to be. Polygamy or the Word of Wisdom aren't necessary for Mormonism to be the Kingdom of God on Earth, but the existence of God is, Joseph Smith's legitimacy as God's viceroy on Earth is, and Joseph Smith's successors being likewise legitimate right-hand men to God on Earth is too.

I think some of you are so interested in rejecting the concept of orthodoxy that you miss Hamblin's point. But, considering just these four specific claims, how can you really assert that a person can meaningfully be "Mormon" while not believing them? Unless "Mormon", for you, has become a cultural or ethnic identity as much as it is a religious one, like "Jew" has become. I don't think it has risen to that for Hamblin, and I don't think I'm there yet either.


Hey, Sethbag-

I don't think that I missed his point so much as I disagreed with its underlying premise, which you appear to take for granted as legitimate. In the underlined passages of your post, I see a connection drawn between two things: 1) the must have truths for Mormonism to be what it claims to be; and 2) that those who call themselves Mormon must *believe* them. First of all, Hamblin's post is about the four things a person must believe in order to consider themselves Mormon; it is not about the four pillars of Mormonism's truth. Those are different things.

And when it comes to religious identity, it is simply stupid to claim that you can arbitrarily define what makes a person "X" by isolating a handful of beliefs and dictating that they are the sine qua non of a particular identity. That is what I call a "prescriptive" formula, as opposed to a "descriptive" formula of identity. Hamblin has decided that, in the face of a John Dehlin testifying at Sunstone that he would like to believe "X" and hopes it is true, but isn't sure, Hamblin wants to say, "See, I told you this guy ain't Mormon. Here's the rubric he doesn't live up to." It is a power move, and one that Hamblin has no authority to make.

Moreover, Hamblin doesn't just say what he thinks you *must* believe, but he also spells out, at least for a couple of the "beliefs," *how* you must believe them. So, this isn't just about accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet, but accepting his particular definition of prophet over others; because he feels that it is his business to tell everyone else how they should believe that Joseph Smith is a prophet. And that is precisely where he is wrong.

We all understand that a religious community will have its set of principles, propositions, faith claims, narratives, and what have you. Each person who is born into or chooses to participate in a community will interact with those things differently than others. It can't possibly be the case that all participants believe all of them, or believe in them in the same way. The minute a Hamblin gets up to tell you precisely what and how you should believe to consider yourself part of the community, he is, I think, stepping way out of bounds. Or, rather, he is blustering, and the more fool you if you give credence to his hot air.

Alternatively, you can take his bit as one person's opinion to think about. You can look at Hamblin as an apologist, who is concerned about his Church, and who approaches that intellectually by wondering out loud what is essential in LDS identity. This is his answer. Some folks may not agree with him. No one is obliged to take his views and internalize them such that, based on his criteria, they suddenly decide they are not really Mormons and leave. I think this is what Robert F. Smith was concerned about in his response to Bill's piece.

This is why I think it is interesting to think about what the church and its presiding officers might say, not what an apologist's opinion is.

I noticed that, while he spelt out requirements on Joseph Smith's prophethood, he did not so so with TSM. Is TSM a prophet in the same sense that Joseph Smith was?

How do Bill's 4 points line up with belief issues that might get you ex'ed? Is/should there be a relationship?
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_Kishkumen
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Re: Hamblin's Creed

Post by _Kishkumen »

I am going to revisit Hamblin's list to illustrate some of the reasons why I think it is problematic:

Bill Hamblin wrote:1- There is a God.


While you may think this is a no-brainer, I would guess that there are Mormon Transhumanists who might look upon the God concept as something humankind is reaching for. It is a foretaste of an evolutionary future as yet unrealized. Such Mormon Transhumanists would act as though such a being does exist for all intents and purposes, because they believe in actively moving toward that ideal. The details of Mormon Transhumanism are too involved to get into here, but I would wager that such a person might be one of the best members of the LDS Church you could ever hope to meet, but s/he is excluded if we read Hamblin a certain way.

Bill Hamblin wrote:2- Jesus is the Christ, meaning not that he was a great teacher, but that he was the Messiah, the Son of God, who was resurrected from the dead.


I think hoping that Jesus Christ is Son of God and Savior makes Mormonism a lot more comfortable a choice of communities if you want to attend meetings regularly. That said, I have seen a few interesting and many stupid explanations of the atonement of Jesus Christ. In the history of Christianity, one finds many theologies and christologies. Simply put, I think it is legitimate to wonder and doubt about Jesus Christ. I would rather sit in the pews with someone who hopes the atonement is real and lives an upright life, than subject myself to a person who has a complete conviction that it is real, but is a predatory pedophile coming after my kids. The mistake that people make with belief is similar to the one that they make with beauty: the beautiful person is sometimes given the benefit of the doubt long after he or she has abused it thoroughly.

Why should I or anyone else be so dense as to follow suit?

And yet so many people do.

Bill Hamblin wrote:3- Joseph Smith is a true prophet, meaning not that he thought he was a prophet, or that other thought he was a prophet, but that he actually saw God, received authentic revelation from God, and received divine authorization to restore the Church. (To me this implies, as a corollary, belief in the historicity of the Book of Mormon. Although some have argued that a fictional Book of Mormon could be scripture, the problem is that if Joseph himself wrote a fictional Book of Mormon, either in a delusional state or as a knowing fraud, or by plagiarizing some other book, it is logically impossible that he was an authentic prophet.)


Here is where I start to have bigger problems with Hamblin's list. I think it is important to respect the community's founding figure, if one wants to be a member of the community. Joseph Smith gives people a great deal to work through in terms of problematic material, if one hopes to sustain that respect. Clearly, the guy was no Ghandi. On the other hand, he didn't and doesn't have to be. Being Mormon is much more comfortable, if you want to participate in meetings regularly, if you see in the complicated picture of Joseph's life something bigger than himself, something that was motivated by the Divine.

When it comes down to actually "seeing" God, I have no idea. I don't think the man lied about it. Did he receive authentic revelation? As opposed to what? I would say that one is more in tune with the community by hoping or seeing evidence of a divine inspiration in Joseph Smith's works, overall.

What is a complete howler is Hamblin's ad hoc definition of what makes an "authentic" prophet. Again, the red flag should pop up once you see the word "authentic," which is nothing more or less than a rhetorical sledge hammer. It is empty of any content beyond saying, "what I think is right, real, and what you should accede to and follow." The Mormon definition of prophet is essentially Joseph Smith's own creation. If that came from divine revelation, then it is Joseph's interpretation of his interaction with God on that point. At no point before Mormonism would you ever find a "prophet who holds all the keys of the Melchizedek priesthood and exercises them," because there was no such thing.

And here Hamblin is saying that his foolproof test for determining who is an "authentic" prophet is whether the Book of Mormon events actually occurred in ancient America. Says who?

Says Bill Hamblin. Why? Because many liberal Mormons either do not accept that it is ancient in that sense, or they don't have a firm conviction that it is. One can say that they do not believe Joseph Smith is a real prophet, if they do not believe the Book of Mormon is ancient.

By Bill Hamblin's standard, we would also have to conclude that the authors of many Biblical books were also not prophets or inspired authors because they wrote books, like Daniel and Job, that are set in the past, but were obviously not written at the time of the chronological setting of the book. Furthermore, they get plenty of historical details wrong, leading to the conclusion that, in a secular sense, one might call these works historical fiction.

Where does that leave the entire foundation of Christianity?

To address this problem, Hamblin and others must insist that all of these Biblical works were written in their fictional setting by the authors everyone had traditionally credited to them before the advent of Higher Criticism, etc.

Another, more economical and sensible approach is to accept that prophets can write pseudepigraphic works that are scripture.

If this is too much of a miracle for you to buy into, then maybe you shouldn't believe in the resurrection either.

Bill Hamblin wrote:4- Thomas S. Monson is a true prophet. (To distinguish from other Mormon-related churches and movements.)


Why to distinguish from other Mormon-related Churches? Do I have to call every other prophet false in order to call Monson a prophet? OK, I get that my community has a leader, and that I follow this leader instead of hanging on every word of President Veazey, but must I think that Veazey is a false prophet to do so? I don't think so. This kind of thinking is an artifact of the schismatic period of Mormon history from Nauvoo through the balance of the 19th century. There is very little reason to behave or think this way now. I am not a member of the Reorganization because they did not keep the endowment. I respect their faith; I think they teach truth; and I don't have to say "my prophet is truer than your prophet."

But again, what does this term prophet mean? This brings up the whole issue of the succession crisis, and the messy process through which Brigham Young muscled his way into the lead of a large faction of Mormons that ultimately headed West. To say that it was obvious at the time that Brigham was the guy is, I think, something only a person invested in a narrow reading of history would claim. Joseph Smith never designated Brigham Young as his one successor during Joseph Smith's lifetime. Brigham clearly did not see himself as such, and even held open the possibility that one of Joseph's sons would take up the leadership of the Church.

So, is it really all so easy? Does one have to say, "yes, I think that Thomas Monson is the only true prophet on the earth, and that he is prophet in precisely the same sense as Joseph Smith was," in order to be a Mormon?

I think not.

Now, what I do think is true is that one probably will have more troubles obtaining a temple recommend if one is not comfortable answering the questions posed in the recommend interview forthrightly and with some conviction.

But that is an entirely different kettle of fish.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Darth J
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Re: Hamblin's Creed

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_Hasa Diga Eebowai
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Re: Hamblin's Creed

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