Don Bradley on the Lost 116-pages

[Guest]

Someone told me that the purpose of a conference paper is to start an argument. By that standard Don has succeeded.

I'm more radical, I think the purpose of a conference paper is to

juggl[e] lit dynamite while walking into a hornet's nest.

I'm sure Don will benefit from AS's critique.

And by the way, Kish's posts here are real gems.


I love MD.

ETA please stay open to the idea that there were women in the "brotherhood of Palmyra seers," namely Lucy Smith and Sally Chase.

[_hans castorp]

I think this discussion shows how apologetics (positive and negative) has poisoned the atmosphere in which Mormon things are discussed. We are so eager to line up someone's work on either side of the battle lines that we often fail to attend to what's actually being said. Of course, FAIR as a venue doesn't help things . . .

hc

[_Kishkumen]

ETA please stay open to the idea that there were women in the "brotherhood of Palmyra seers," namely Lucy Smith and Sally Chase.

Oh, I nearly cried. How silly of me. Yes, you are right.

[_Kishkumen]

I think this discussion shows how apologetics (positive and negative) has poisoned the atmosphere in which Mormon things are discussed. We are so eager to line up someone's work on either side of the battle lines that we often fail to attend to what's actually being said. Of course, FAIR as a venue doesn't help things . . .

hc

Exactly, exactly, EXACTLY x 1,000,000.

That is so, so, so true.

[_Blixa]

I think this discussion shows how apologetics (positive and negative) has poisoned the atmosphere in which Mormon things are discussed. We are so eager to line up someone's work on either side of the battle lines that we often fail to attend to what's actually being said. Of course, FAIR as a venue doesn't help things . . .

hc

I agree. I take the view that Kish does regarding Don's work. It is extremely useful to understanding Joseph Smith and the development of his ideas. Will it convince me that the "church is true"? Well, I don't look to historical scholarship for that, in the first place. Does it help me understand Joseph Smith and challenge some of my ideas about his history? Yes. Does it help bolster naïve belief about the antiquity of the Book of Mormon? I don't think it even speaks to this at all.

[_Blixa]

ETA please stay open to the idea that there were women in the "brotherhood of Palmyra seers," namely Lucy Smith and Sally Chase.

A fascinating point for further work.

[_hans castorp]

Does it [Don's work] help bolster naïve belief about the antiquity of the Book of Mormon? I don't think it even speaks to this at all.

And, indeed, why should it?

hc

[Guest]

ETA please stay open to the idea that there were women in the "brotherhood of Palmyra seers," namely Lucy Smith and Sally Chase.

Oh, I nearly cried. How silly of me. Yes, you are right.

lol, there's no crying in Mormon studies.

There are references to Lucy (a pure women open to impressions?) being the glass looker with Joseph Smith being the digger, the same with Sally (a young women, virgin?) telling Joseph Smith where to dig. It's hard to create a timeline though. But obviously at some point Joseph Smith (pure male youth, except for his minor sins) starts to look too as well as dig. I haven't checked these references in years so I stand open to correction.

On the other hand one can argue that Mormonism began as a magic men's club that spread from the Smith men (with Emma needing chastising) to the Knight men (with Mrs. Knight reluctant) to the Whitmer men (was Mary Whitmer's seeing the plates designed to convince her when she was dragging behind?). In one sense this would make Lucy all the more remarkable. But there may have been some back and forth with Smith family gender roles in the folk practices as there were with the religious issues, if the folk practices and religious issues can even be separated.

Sellers sets Mormon women off against 2nd Great Awakening women.

But alas I have thread hijacked again as I am wont to do.

Let's get back to the temple ritual in the lost 116 pages. Do you think what Lucy might have done was the same or different from what the men might have been doing?

[_Fence Sitter]

This thread is remarkable.

[_hans castorp]

There are references to Lucy (a pure women open to impressions?) being the glass looker with Joseph Smith being the digger, the same with Sally (a young women, virgin?) telling Joseph Smith where to dig. It's hard to create a timeline though. But obviously at some point Joseph Smith (pure male youth, except for his minor sins) starts to look too as well as dig. I haven't checked these references in years so I stand open to correction.

On the other hand one can argue that Mormonism began as a magic men's club that spread from the Smith men (with Emma needing chastising) to the Knight men (with Mrs. Knight reluctant) to the Whitmer men (was Mary Whitmer's seeing the plates designed to convince her when she was dragging behind?). In one sense this would make Lucy all the more remarkable. But there may have been some back and forth with Smith family gender roles in the folk practices as there were with the religious issues, if the folk practices and religious issues can even be separated.

Sellers sets Mormon women off against 2nd Great Awakening women.

But alas I have thread hijacked again as I am wont to do.

Let's get back to the temple ritual in the lost 116 pages. Do you think what Lucy might have done was the same or different from what the men might have been doing?

This is fascinating. Can you point me to any literature on gender roles in American or British folk magic?
hc