Don Bradley on the Lost 116-pages

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_Aristotle Smith
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Re: Don Bradley on the Lost 116-pages

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

hans castorp wrote:
Blixa wrote: Does it [Don's work] help bolster naïve belief about the antiquity of the Book of Mormon? I don't think it even speaks to this at all.


And, indeed, why should it?

hc


Because his audience was full of people who naïvely believe in the antiquity of the Book of Mormon. He was presenting at FAIR, not the American Academy of Religion. I guess I am the naïve one in assuming that an organization dedicated to Mormon Apologetics would be interested in, well, Mormon Apologetics, not presentations that make said enterprise more difficult.

In some ways this is a re-hash of the debate last year about the Kinderhook Plates.
_dblagent007
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Re: Don Bradley on the Lost 116-pages

Post by _dblagent007 »

It sounds like most of you think Don's presentation was like this:
The Presence of Christ in the Lord of the Rings
Tolkien's Catholic tradition tends to have a high opinion of pagans who know and follow the "natural law", for it interprets these pagans not apart from Christ, but as imperfectly knowing Him. For Christ is not just a thirty-three-year-old, six-foot-tall Jewish carpenter, but the eternal Logos, the Mind of God, "the true light that enlightens every man" (Jn 1:9). So Christ can be present even when not adequately known in paganism. This is exactly what St. Paul told the Athenians (in Acts 17:23): "What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you." Christ's presence is not limited to the presence of the explicit knowledge of Christ, or the revelation of Christ. As the Reformed tradition puts it, there is also "general revelation" as well as "special revelation".

http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features ... _nov05.asp

While I bet most believers think it was like this:
Recent discoveries by archaeologists and historians have found evidence that indicates that elves, giants, dragons and even hobbits once existed on earth. Norse legends, Sumerian texts and the discovery of hobbits and giant eagles on the island of Flores indicate that the Lord of the Rings may be more fact than fiction.

Dirk has researched scientific, biblical and historical texts to discover if J.R.R. Tolkien had secret knowledge of earth’s early history and if he based the Lord of the Rings on this knowledge.

http://www.prlog.org/10019185-is-the-lo ... story.html
_lulu
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Re: Don Bradley on the Lost 116-pages

Post by _lulu »

hans castorp wrote:
lulu wrote:There are references to Lucy (a pure women open to impressions?) being the glass looker with Joseph Smith being the digger, the same with Sally (a young women, virgin?) telling Joseph Smith where to dig. It's hard to create a timeline though. But obviously at some point Joseph Smith (pure male youth, except for his minor sins) starts to look too as well as dig. I haven't checked these references in years so I stand open to correction.

On the other hand one can argue that Mormonism began as a magic men's club that spread from the Smith men (with Emma needing chastising) to the Knight men (with Mrs. Knight reluctant) to the Whitmer men (was Mary Whitmer's seeing the plates designed to convince her when she was dragging behind?). In one sense this would make Lucy all the more remarkable. But there may have been some back and forth with Smith family gender roles in the folk practices as there were with the religious issues, if the folk practices and religious issues can even be separated.

Sellers sets Mormon women off against 2nd Great Awakening women.

But alas I have thread hijacked again as I am wont to do.

Let's get back to the temple ritual in the lost 116 pages. Do you think what Lucy might have done was the same or different from what the men might have been doing?


This is fascinating. Can you point me to any literature on gender roles in American or British folk magic?
hc

It's been a long time since I looked at this. When I did, there wasn't any.

The closest you come is women and gender in witchcraft. There the over all theme is women, at the margins, claiming power, which also placed them in vunerable situations.

Someone somewhere said that the end of the witchcraze in America made it safer for women with a folklore bent to surface. I usually don't like this type of question, but sometimes I ask myself if Lucy had been living the 1600s would she have been accused of being a witch? Poor woman, always having to move, always the new woman in town, living outside the village in the township (at times), didn't fit into any church, had her folklore practices?

The last time I looked, the American women's historiography goes something like, women and the witch craze, women and the Great Awakenings. So there's a gap between say 1690 and 1740 where there wasn't anything of note in the secondary literature re women.

But someone somewhere said (not limiting it to women) people were falling on the ground in 1740 and doing things that would have gotten them hung as witches in 1690.

So something was going on with women between roughly 1690 and 1740 (of course, something is always going on with women, they're people) but I don't know what nor do I currently know anyone who does.

Lydia Gates Mack (Mother of Lovisa, Lovina, Lucy and others) was born in 1735 which would have been towards the end of this period. She appears to be a solidly Congregational woman from a solid Congregational family. Her congregation in East Haddam rejected New Lights. Although her daughters were open to them. But by then, Lydia had moved up the river to the "frontier." I have never found any evidence of folk practices in Lydia's life. Where Lucy learned her's I don't known, although Hall warns us to not assume solid Congregationalists didn't have their folk practices. But he's not looking at women.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Don Bradley on the Lost 116-pages

Post by _Kishkumen »

Aristotle Smith wrote:Because his audience was full of people who naïvely believe in the antiquity of the Book of Mormon. He was presenting at FAIR, not the American Academy of Religion. I guess I am the naïve one in assuming that an organization dedicated to Mormon Apologetics would be interested in, well, Mormon Apologetics, not presentations that make said enterprise more difficult.

In some ways this is a re-hash of the debate last year about the Kinderhook Plates.


What, reasonably, can you expect someone presenting at FAIR to do?

I prefer an approach that reveals the richness of 19th century Mormonism as a spiritual and ritual system to a quixotic attempt to establish Joseph Smith's divinely acquired knowledge of ancient Israel.

Your criticism seems to aim at pigeonholing his efforts by characterizing them as the latter. You seem to exclude entirely the possibility that members of his audience might have benefited from the former.

Sure, I suppose Don could, if he thought as you do, attack head on any idea of Joseph Smith's revelations relating to antiquity, but if his goal is to interact with a large number of Mormon scholars profitably in reference to a shared faith, such an approach would explode in his face.

Why does Don have to do what you want him to do in order for his work to be worthwhile? My guess is that if a) he believed as you believe, and b) he undertook to do what you think needs to be done, then 1) he would not be speaking at FAIR, and 2) few believing Mormon scholars in that group would listen to what he has to say.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_gramps
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Re: Don Bradley on the Lost 116-pages

Post by _gramps »

lulu wrote:

The last time I looked, the American women's historiography goes something like, women and the witch craze, women and the Great Awakenings. So there's a gap between say 1690 and 1740 where there wasn't anything of note in the secondary literature re women.


It is beginning to change. You might find the following of interest about women in New England, circa 1650-1750. It is a good read. I think you would enjoy it.

http://www.amazon.com/Good-Wives-Reality-Northern-1650-1750/dp/0679732578/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1344877130&sr=8-2&keywords=Laurel+Thatcher+Ulrich
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
Adrian Beverland
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Re: Don Bradley on the Lost 116-pages

Post by _Cicero »

hans castorp wrote:I think this discussion shows how apologetics (positive and negative) has poisoned the atmosphere in which Mormon things are discussed. We are so eager to line up someone's work on either side of the battle lines that we often fail to attend to what's actually being said. Of course, FAIR as a venue doesn't help things . . .

hc


You really hit the nail on the head.
_lulu
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Re: Don Bradley on the Lost 116-pages

Post by _lulu »

gramps wrote:lulu wrote:

The last time I looked, the American women's historiography goes something like, women and the witch craze, women and the Great Awakenings. So there's a gap between say 1690 and 1740 where there wasn't anything of note in the secondary literature re women.


It is beginning to change. You might find the following of interest about women in New England, circa 1650-1750. It is a good read. I think you would enjoy it.

http://www.amazon.com/Good-Wives-Reality-Northern-1650-1750/dp/0679732578/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1344877130&sr=8-2&keywords=Laurel+Thatcher+Ulrich

That's a great resource, and right in the time period. Thanks.
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
_hans castorp
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Re: Don Bradley on the Lost 116-pages

Post by _hans castorp »

gramps wrote:lulu wrote:

The last time I looked, the American women's historiography goes something like, women and the witch craze, women and the Great Awakenings. So there's a gap between say 1690 and 1740 where there wasn't anything of note in the secondary literature re women.


It is beginning to change. You might find the following of interest about women in New England, circa 1650-1750. It is a good read. I think you would enjoy it.

http://www.amazon.com/Good-Wives-Reality-Northern-1650-1750/dp/0679732578/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1344877130&sr=8-2&keywords=Laurel+Thatcher+Ulrich


Thanks, both of you.

hc
Blog: The Use of Talking

"Found him to be the village explainer. Very useful if you happen to be a village; if not, not." --Gertrude Stein
_gramps
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Re: Don Bradley on the Lost 116-pages

Post by _gramps »

You are welcome, of course.

You might enjoy this video. She is a Mormon, if you didn't know.

http://stream.scl.utah.edu/index.php?c=details&id=8263
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
Adrian Beverland
_robuchan
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Re: Don Bradley on the Lost 116-pages

Post by _robuchan »

I don't have much of anything positive to say about FAIR or apologetics in general. But I find Don Bradley's last two FAIR presentations extremely interesting. I don't know that they prove anything in an apologetic sense, but he definitely breaks new ground. He's taken subject matter both times that seems very unlikely to produce anything, and he's shown some real creativity, bringing something new to the table.

I see DCP's Asherah thing and the King Benjamin temple rites thing Kevin Christensen brings up on a daily basis, and I just don't find anything compelling about it. Bradley's stuff is completely different.

edit: a comparison I thought of is that DCP and others approach seems to be to start with the conclusion and then try to find anything you can possible find that might make the connection. Bradley seems to look at the clues first like a detective, and then try to piece them together.
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