The Glory of God is Intelligence

[_PrickKicker]

I agree with your sentiment. According to Mormom doctrine one third of the hosts of heaven rebelled against God even when they were certain of his existence. So at least accorrding to Mormonism you don't need doubt or a lack knowledge to have agency.

It also means that, according to Mormonism, Gods plan just wasn't that convincing...

Abraham would never have led Isaac up Mt Moriah without the HOPE that God would change his mind. See?
Hope has the power to override information. This touches upon my new interest in the why of whys. I don't want to let too much light out from under the door just yet.

And a good parent would have told God to shove it when He first asked them to murder their own child.

I agree with your sentiment. According to Mormom doctrine one third of the hosts of heaven rebelled against God even when they were certain of his existence. So at least accorrding to Mormonism you don't need doubt or a lack knowledge to have agency.

Sock puppet, Stormy waters, Drifting.
Finally some sense makers!

Right from the start...
'God told Adam and Eve not to partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil' (Genesis / Moses 3:17)

So.. from what I understand the most intelligent being in the multi-verse gave instructions, to beings incapable of knowing right from wrong and so therefore incapable of sin,
a direction not to disobey him which would take some kind of knowledge of right and wrong / good and evil.

And so I ask who is claiming to be the intelligent one?

WoW, the veil of shortsightedness has been lifted from my eyes and I feel confident enough to untether myself from the iron rod.

[_zeezrom]

Discussions of intelligence in GC peaked in the late 1800's (1870's) according to the BYU corpus. for what it's worth.

[_sock puppet]

Discussions of intelligence in GC peaked in the late 1800's (1870's) according to the BYU corpus. for what it's worth.

zeezrom, what can you tell us about it?

[_sock puppet]

Sock puppet, Stormy waters, Drifting.
Finally some sense makers!

Right from the start...
'God told Adam and Eve not to partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil' (Genesis / Moses 3:17)

So.. from what I understand the most intelligent being in the multi-verse gave instructions, to beings incapable of knowing right from wrong and so therefore incapable of sin, a direction not to disobey him which would take some kind of knowledge of right and wrong / good and evil.

And so I ask who is claiming to be the intelligent one?

WoW, the veil of shortsightedness has been lifted from my eyes and I feel confident enough to untether myself from the iron rod.

PK, good to have you here at MDB. And your point about god telling Adam and Eve not to partake of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is a good one, as is Stormy Waters and Drifting's about the 1/3 of the hosts of heaven, having freely chosen Lucifer's plan despite knowing of god's existence and preference for Jehovah's plan. (Nightlion's words are certainly lyrical in a Biblical style, but in this thread, his words do not resonate with me.)

The 1/3 of the hosts of heaven fact illustrates that ignorance is not necessary for free agency. It is a non sequitur to argue otherwise.

The Adam and Eve fact illustrates that one has to have knowledge to be able to decide, to distinguish between 'good' and 'evil'. It also suggests that the author(s) of Genesis knew full well that knowledge was insidious to obedience, and it is clear that obedience was what they were shilling.

Free agency does not require ignorance. Free agency requires being free to choose as one wants. Free agency is actually heightened by the more information that the individual has about the matter at hand.

What is contrary to free agency is parental, familial and societal pressures brought to bear to keep someone from following the path that he or she would choose but for those pressures. That is trying to decide something for someone else, depriving that individual of freely exercising his or her agency.

[_zeezrom]

Discussions of intelligence in GC peaked in the late 1800's (1870's) according to the BYU corpus. for what it's worth.

zeezrom, what can you tell us about it?

I actually finished a post in which I shared my thoughts on this but I decided in the end not to post. I slowly started diverging into card playing and prohibition, and decided I better just let it go. Sorry.

[_Nightlion]

You guys relentlessly ride roughshod over all things sacred with your adult minds filled with critical thinking.

Notice that Christ commanded us to be meek and lowly of heart and come unto him with a broken heart and contrite spirit and as a little child. Contrast that posture which is acceptable with God to the posture you carry on with and celebrate between one another.

You are completely out of harmony with God and still insist that you have some value in the interpretation of God.
Take a critical look at that fact. Try and come to some sort of logical conclusion as to whether or not it is ever going to be likely that any of you will get to the truth.

Look at Adam and Eve being commanded to obey and not partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Do you have any idea where Adam and Eve came from?
Were they both brand new spirits?
How come the were MADE to forget all?
What caused this to happen?
How long would the effect of this forgetfulness continue?
Would they begin to remember something and start putting two and two together, eventually?
Would Eve one day realize she was barren and NEEDED to partake of the tree so as to have her seed multiplied and replenished in her?
We have no idea how long they remained under the influence of what retarded them.
Just because they forgot when the clay was mixed with their spirit does not mean that would last forever.
What did they converse with God about while walking and talking with him in the cool of the day?
Did he give off hints as to what was eventually going to happen or where they came from and what they had done before getting tethered in the Garden?

I suggest you are given up to critical bashing more than to critical or informed or even well imagined thinking.

[_PrickKicker]

You guys relentlessly ride roughshod over all things sacred with your adult minds filled with critical thinking.

You are completely out of harmony with God and still insist that you have some value in the interpretation of God.
Take a critical look at that fact. Try and come to some sort of logical conclusion as to whether or not it is ever going to be likely that any of you will get to the truth.

I suggest you are given up to critical bashing more than to critical or informed or even well imagined thinking.

( Shhh...Whisper... I love people who can't back up what they are saying with pure logic and reason ...so resort back to playing god & personal attacks. lol...)

(Return to normal volume...) COUGH! Well thank you, I shall take that on board.

[_Drifting]

You guys relentlessly ride roughshod over all things sacred with your adult minds filled with critical thinking.

Notice that Christ commanded us to be meek and lowly of heart and come unto him with a broken heart and contrite spirit and as a little child. Contrast that posture which is acceptable with God to the posture you carry on with and celebrate between one another.

You are completely out of harmony with God and still insist that you have some value in the interpretation of God.
Take a critical look at that fact. Try and come to some sort of logical conclusion as to whether or not it is ever going to be likely that any of you will get to the truth.

Look at Adam and Eve being commanded to obey and not partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Do you have any idea where Adam and Eve came from?
Were they both brand new spirits?
How come the were MADE to forget all?
What caused this to happen?
How long would the effect of this forgetfulness continue?
Would they begin to remember something and start putting two and two together, eventually?
Would Eve one day realize she was barren and NEEDED to partake of the tree so as to have her seed multiplied and replenished in her?
We have no idea how long they remained under the influence of what r******* them.
Just because they forgot when the clay was mixed with their spirit does not mean that would last forever.
What did they converse with God about while walking and talking with him in the cool of the day?
Did he give off hints as to what was eventually going to happen or where they came from and what they had done before getting tethered in the Garden?

I suggest you are given up to critical bashing more than to critical or informed or even well imagined thinking.

The problem Nightlion, is that God gave us a brain and commanded us to use it. Now it seems He doesn't like the results and instead, requires us to forget our adult mental capacities in order for us to believe in Him.

No wonder a third of us thought (hmm... It seems 'thinking' is the achiles heel in all of this) His plan was flawed right from the start.

[_Nightlion]

You guys relentlessly ride roughshod over all things sacred with your adult minds filled with critical thinking.

You are completely out of harmony with God and still insist that you have some value in the interpretation of God.
Take a critical look at that fact. Try and come to some sort of logical conclusion as to whether or not it is ever going to be likely that any of you will get to the truth.

I suggest you are given up to critical bashing more than to critical or informed or even well imagined thinking.

( Shhh...Whisper... I love people who can't back up what they are saying with pure logic and reason ...so resort back to playing god & personal attacks. lol...)

(Return to normal volume...) COUGH! Well thank you, I shall take that on board.

Dismissive down talk that simply ignores content (even denies its existence) does not finesse a good argument or a retort. I will leave off judging what it IS because, well, that would be unkind.

[_Nightlion]

The problem Nightlion, is that God gave us a brain and commanded us to use it. Now it seems He doesn't like the results and instead, requires us to forget our adult mental capacities in order for us to believe in Him.

No wonder a third of us thought (hmm... It seems 'thinking' is the achiles heel in all of this) His plan was flawed right from the start.

We are uncreated intelligence. Intelligence can be enlarged, however, at the same time it can also be diminished.
The Lord declared that the natural man is an enemy of God and has been from the beginning. I know we are fooled by the adorableness of our infant children to suppose that we are all as sweet and innocent before God. I am not saying little children are not innocent but that those first days are a suspension of their natural enmity. A treatment for us to experience grace unmerited couple with hopefully abundant nurture from adoring parents. A great boost and treatment to by chance give pause to the emergence of the natural man regaining the dominance of our souls in cogent thoughts of maturity. Perchance a longing for a recognition of that state of innocence and bliss will draw us by faith to find it again in the grace of Christ's gospel, perchance.

So what brain exactly are we talking about. The natural enemy brain or the brain renewed and exalted by the power of God's grace and continual nurture and sustenance?

You may well be the veteran or a thousand rebellions with the 1/3rd. They are always on the track of forced recycling. So could we all. Were is our innocence? How could we be tossed back into the potters grind and not be diminished each time? And that for our good if we now come to know the Lord and repent of our eternal enmity.