building relationships of trust

[_Sethbag]

It does to me, yes.

What gets me is that a Mormon tells a person that they will have good feelings, and that those feelings are the Holy Ghost. They then set up an environment in which the person will have good feelings. They point back to the explanation of the Holy Ghost and, in their minds, have proven their point.

The weak link here is that the tie-in between the good feelings and the Holy Ghost was at best wishful thinking, and at worst outright question begging.

And that's the big weak link with the Moroni 10 claims too. Even if someone followed the steps and got the result the Mormons are hoping for, they are still accepting the just-so Mormon claims that their explanation of the Holy Ghost are really true and that the experience really means what the Mormons say it means. Nothing has actually been proved or demonstrated.

[_DarkHelmet]

I still recall being instructed in the techniques of this in the MTC. Upon entering a home, we'd look for photos or other conversation starters to remark upon, in order to get the person to open up a bit and talk with us. We'd ask questions and give the other person the opportunity to give something of themselves. The gist of it was we were taught to pretend like we gave a s*** about people so that we could more easily manipulate them into agreeing to be baptised.

I never went on a mission, but this sounds like standard sales training to me. Back when I was in college, I got a sales job with a big box electronics store. Before starting the job, all new sales people had to attend a 3 week training course at the company headquarters. The weeks were spent learning the various sales scripts, learning about overcoming objections, role playing, etc. The first step in the script was "build rapport". We were told that before we try to sell anything we must first build a relationship with the customer. It didn't matter what, just find something about the customer you can talk about to build their trust. The training was actually kinda fun. But once the training course ended and I started doing it for real, I learned very quickly that I was not a salesman. Nothing against salespeople, it just isn't for me. A couple interesting things about the sales training. They had recently modified the script. It used to be a requirement that when both a husband and a wife were in the store, you were to address the husband, since he was the decision maker. When I took the training it was changed to allow us to address whoever is closest to you. Also, during the final week of training we spent a few hours talking about controversies in the companies past - charges of bait and switch practices, etc. and how we were supposed to answer people who brought up those issues. Whenever people tell me about stories from the MTC, it reminds me of my sales training.

[_Racer]

The commitment pattern, if used properly, is designed to always tilt things in the missionary's favor. Questions are loaded, leading, and can only be answered with a yes or no answer.

"Do you want to do the right thing and obey the commandments God has given us?"
"Do you feel it is important to keep your body healthy by not drinking harmful beverages?"
"If God wanted to deliver an important message to you, would you listen to that message?"

[_zeezrom]

I quickly cast away the sales techniques taught on my mission. I believe they're there in case you can't think of anything else to do. I was just myself and ended up baptizing over 40 people in an English speaking mission.

Wow, the Spirit is strong with this one.

[Guest]

One of my sisters, at around 18-19 years old and at the time I was on my mission, had a non member boyfriend. He had the discussions in our house and the missionaries put all kinds of pressure on him in addition to the knowledge that my sister wasn't going to marry a nonmember. He was baptized but was never active and so of course my sister didn't marry him. I'm very sure my sister emphasized that he should not join simply because of her but also because he truly believed. I'm also sure the missionaries did not emphasize this because my sister and parents reported all the happenings and sales tactics being applied. And no, my sister did not go out with him simply to get a convert. He pursued her.

About half of my baptisms were of this type of scenario, a non member boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse. However, we strongly emphasized that they should NOT JOIN unless they TRULY BELIEVED and we would NOT BAPTIZE them until they witnessed unto us by attending Church consistently week after week, living the word of wisdom, law of chastity, and paying their tithing. I ruffled many feathers on this in the Church and my mission president as well, but ultimately, in my last year, my companionships were always among the top baptizing and I can still account more than 20 years later for all but one of my baptisms for current activity in the Church.

I can remember teaching one of the vice presidents of Herbalife. He had an LDS girlfriend. Very nice people. But I had a bad feeling about it and I did not see fruits meet for repentance. He did not come to Church consistently, he still essentially lived with his girlfriend even though he moved out. I knew he still drank alcohol from time to time and thought it not to be a violation of the WoW. I'm fairly certain he never paid his tithing but I can't prove it. He listened politely to the discussions but always changed the subject as soon as possible. My comp wanted to baptize him badly. I said no. However, I wasn't DL or ZL at the time and so, despite my strong objections to them and to the MP, he was baptized. He was immediately inactive and I knew this because I stayed in the area for several months after. Who knows but what he became active and believing at some time in the future or will but I think it unlikely. My comp saw the light and apologized to me. This was early in my mission when I became adamant about real belief and activity BEFORE baptism. I remain so to this day and still ruffle feathers about it.

I have stories with better endings. Samoan son of a Methodist minister. Married a Mormon girl. Took the discussions. He loved chess. We would go to play chess and have a discussion. He proved his belief with activity and obedience. Was baptized. Later moved to Hawaii and become a Stake president.

Young Jehovah's witness. Separated by distance from his BYU girlfriend. We taught him. We expounded the scriptures. I can credit Jesus The Christ by Talmadge for helping us with answers to his questions including one (about the resurrection) that proved to him we were the real deal. He came to Church every Sunday. Was baptised. Wanted to be a Seventy (when they still had Seventy's in the wards) so he could do what JW's do only LDS style. Became a Seventy and a WML. Girlfriend came back from BYU. They married in the temple. Still married to this day. 4 kids.

Young man about 22. Excommunicated for chastity. Had BYU girlfriend. Was the son of the missionaries who served in Kenya and who baptized there my current companion and his family. Taught him. He repented and became obedient and active. Baptized. Married the BYU girl in the temple. 6 kids and a grandfather already.

Young man. Croatian-Jew (less than 500 live there today). Time of trouble in the Balkan states but not yet open warfare. No Mormon girlfriend but a close LDS friend who was preparing for a mission. Took the discussions, went to Church consistently and committed to live the good life. Friend called on mission. Baptized. Married an Italian Mormon and still active today, one child. Gave his mother the Croatian language Book of Mormon (just excerpts at the time). She cherishes it but I don't think she has joined.

Single woman, mid twenties. Teacher. Actually fell in love with a missionary from a previous companionship. That companionship was transferred and we came in. Tough to teach her because all she could do was pine for that missionary she loved (and who very appropriately did not return her romantic love). It took several months but she finally came around. Church attendance consistently etc. etc. Baptized. The aforementioned elder attended her baptism and baptized her, but he had a girlfriend waiting at home. But by that time I think she grew up and realized what the Church is for and why we were there. Asked to be called on a mission. Was called to South Korea. Served honorably. Came home. Married in the temple. Two kids last I heard.

Two former homosexuals wanting to return to membership at the same time. Well, I can be reasonably sure one was former....Both have AIDS. Both very sick. The one was constantly depressed and thought God had punished him to the point of no hope. We tried our best with the love and forgiveness of Christ, but he died suddenly about 10 weeks after we starting teaching him. At no time did he bring forth fruits meet for repentance. He always said he would come to Church but never did despite our best efforts of offering rides and a we had some members lined up to befriend him but he rejected them. The other was always happy and upbeat despite the regular visits the hospital. He recognized and took advantage of the Atonement. He came to Church even when physically unable to do it himself with the member's help. While we were there, there was a mishap at the hospital with the X-ray source and a nurse rushed in to protect him as patient and handled the source. She later died of radiation poisoning. He survived (led vest helped I suppose). Was re-baptized. Lived until the early 2000's and finally passed away, still active and believing.

Many other experiences in the homosexual community as my companionship was specifically tasked to teach those wanting to come back. Many other great missionary experiences overall.

[_Yoda]

They work well when done by someone good at them, to someone who is susceptible to them. Apparently I wasn't very good at it on my mission. Plenty of missionaries are out there baptizing plenty of people, so yes, apparently it can work well enough. As far as retention goes, from what I read the retention of new converts is abysmal. I guess there is a difference between being "committed" in the transitive verb sense, ie: by a missionary, and being "committed" in the intransitive verb sense, ie: being inwardly committed.

I think this is something problematic in the mission field today..the use of numbers of baptisms to determine success rate. What good is baptizing someone if they aren't going to be a committed member? It certainly doesn't do the Church much good, even from a financial standpoint, because the uncommitted members are not the ones paying full tithes.

Shouldn't the missionaries be concentrating on assisting in the conversion of people who are really going to be committed to the religion? I'm sorry but this cannot be done through a blatant numbers game. This is done through service.

If you really want committed people to our Church, missionaries should spend time serving others...allowing others to see the good our Church can do, and want to be more a part of it.

I think there should also be more emphasis on reactivating members who might have been "turned off" or were simply forgotten. How many converts do you see who, after the "newness" has worn off, end up sitting in the back by themselves? The missionaries have moved on to someone new. If they haven't managed to fit in to the "click" of the membership, and are awaiting a calling from the bishop, they can easily fall through the cracks.

Numbers don't tell the full story. When will people understand that?

[_zeezrom]

On my first day in the mission field, my Pres sat me down and said, "I want you to go to XYZ town and start a new branch."

That was music to my ears. I desperately wanted to "move mountains" on my mission, just as many young men do. The reality was different, much to my disappointment. We didn't get a single baptism.

We almost baptized a guy but right before the baptism, he came to us with this question: "Why does the Book of Mormon mention the word Steel?" We could not supply him with a good enough answer, despite our excellent relationship of trust, built during the previous 3 months. He would never see us again after that.

[_bcspace]

I edited my above post with additional experiences.

We almost baptized a guy but right before the baptism, he came to us with this question: "Why does the Book of Mormon mention the word Steel?" We could not supply him with a good enough answer, despite our excellent relationship of trust, built during the previous 3 months. He would never see us again after that.

The answer is easy and is still true today. Absence of evidence is not scientific proof. What Joseph Smith saw and thought was steel is also reasonable. Of course as we now know, there is evidence of metal alloys in Mesoamerica at about the right time. I never had trouble with the question. Your problem may have been not understanding science as well as I do to give you the ability to speak with confidence.

The notion that the Spirit should have helped you or that the Church should have supplied you with better answers is not unreasonable. But rather than speaking to truth claims, it speaks more to stumbling blocks and the parable of the sower and the varieties of experiences and spiritual levels we are all at.

[_Sophocles]

The problem, for me, was that I couldn't pretend like this. I would actually give a s*** about people, and then because I actually cared about the person I was unable to leverage that to get the person to agree to something they didn't really want.

In my mission we called that "fearing man more than God." That feeling you get, telling you that you're being rude, inconsiderate, intrusive, deceitful, or otherwise acting counter to what you've been taught your whole life about decent human interaction? That's Satan trying to thwart the Work. You have to get past those feelings.

[_bcspace]

Shouldn't the missionaries be concentrating on assisting in the conversion of people who are really going to be committed to the religion?

It depends on the area. The members are typically better at finding. I'd say the missionary program is slowly coming about, coming closer to what I think it ought to be. The mindset is still that the requirements for baptism should remain comparatively loose and that the local membership should and can fill in the rest. Basically, their studies (which I think are somewhat flawed) show that a program which baptizes 10 and results in 2 temple endowments is better than a program baptizing 3 and resulting in 1 temple endowment. Do you see the flaw?