Liberal gun violence. Rising?

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_MeDotOrg
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Re: Liberal gun violence. Rising?

Post by _MeDotOrg »

ldsfaqs wrote:Lincoln was a Conservative, because Classical Liberalism is and was always Conservatism.


We have finally evolved into Newspeak:
War is Peace!
Slavery is Freedom!
Classic Liberalism is and always was Conservatism!

When a liberal idea is bad, it is liberal, when it is good, it is classic liberal, and therefore conservative! Brilliant!

Never mind that this country was founded by radical revolutionaries steeped in the liberal thinking of the Enlightenment. John Locke is now a conservative!

It was the LIBERAL Lester Maddux who kept ax handles in a barrel at the front of his chicken shack for his patrons to use on any Negro who tried to sit down. It was the LIBERAL Bull Conner who used high powered fire hoses and attack dogs to subdue the conservative protesters.

As I'm sure, 30 years from now, it will be the LIBERALS who opposed gay marriage, because Conservatives are for liberty!

ldsfaqs wrote:If Lincoln was a Liberal in any way or shape, he wouldn't be one of our most loved icons.

Lincoln, in a letter to Col. William F. Elkins, 1864: "I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. . . . corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."

Tell me, ldsfaqs, are you more likely to hear those words at the 2012 Democratic or Republican Convention?
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_ldsfaqs
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Re: Liberal gun violence. Rising?

Post by _ldsfaqs »

MeDotOrg wrote:
ldsfaqs wrote:Lincoln was a Conservative, because Classical Liberalism is and was always Conservatism.


We have finally evolved into Newspeak:
War is Peace!
Slavery is Freedom!
Classic Liberalism is and always was Conservatism!

When a liberal idea is bad, it is liberal, when it is good, it is classic liberal, and therefore conservative! Brilliant!


Problem with your judgment is that it ignores the facts. It's not "newspeak" it's simply the history. Classical liberalism was all about freedom, same way conservatives are. Modern liberals are fascists, socialist, and communists, completely anathema to founding father ideals.

Conservatives aren't taking away your light bulbs, your big gulps, and on and on.

Never mind that this country was founded by radical revolutionaries steeped in the liberal thinking of the Enlightenment. John Locke is now a conservative!


Key word is "enlightenment"..... Modern liberalism is not "enlightenment", it's dark ages.

It was the LIBERAL Lester Maddux who kept ax handles in a barrel at the front of his chicken shack for his patrons to use on any Negro who tried to sit down. It was the LIBERAL Bull Conner who used high powered fire hoses and attack dogs to subdue the conservative protesters.


That's right, both Liberals, both Democrats.
As to "conservative protesters", I wouldn't say that, I would say they were all points of the spectrum, passionate youth, radicals, etc. Both "standard" Democrat's and Repub's stayed out of the "anarchy". For example, Martin Luther King was a conservative republican, but he did have a few liberal leanings, maybe a bit like Bush and JFK.

As I'm sure, 30 years from now, it will be the LIBERALS who opposed gay marriage, because Conservatives are for liberty!


Again, your fantasy straw-men don't make your point, even in the future.

Lincoln, in a letter to Col. William F. Elkins, 1864: "I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. . . . corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."

Tell me, ldsfaqs, are you more likely to hear those words at the 2012 Democratic or Republican Convention?


Thank you for quoting this, you prove my point....

1. It was a Letter. Private concerns
2. It was future concerns of some trends he was worried might occur.
3. While the first half seems to support your liberal agenda, the second half is a conservative one.
4. It's not "corporations" who prolong their reign by working on the "prejudices of the people" it liberals and liberalism (a.k.a. progressives), by demonizing, calling everyone not them racists, calling all corporations and the rich greedy and needing their money taken. Further, wealth has never been in more hands in a society than it now has. The only way his worry will come true is if liberals are allowed to rule. Because they take from the rich, making them low, so the only ones who have power is them and a few of their pet corporations, just like Hitlers Germany. Conservatives want everyone to be raised up, as many as possible rich, people in charge of their own money and generosity, power to the people, not government or corporations.
5. Even more, you can't cherry pick one concern of what future might happen in his thoughts with both reality AND with what all of his other views were..... He was considerably conservative.
6. Conservatives will demonize a corporation if they need to be demonized. Have we not demonized GM???

When there is wrong, we demonize justly and righteously.....

We are not you, making everyone with money the bad guys.
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_EAllusion
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Re: Liberal gun violence. Rising?

Post by _EAllusion »

ldsfaqs wrote:Boy, that is certainly not correct.....

Pay attention to all the points in this statement. It's all the fundamentals of Conservatism.
Note also how they delineate modern liberalism (social liberalism) etc. Note also that Milton Friedman was a powerful Conservative thinker in our modern day.


Modern classic liberalism is generally considered conservative, though in the libertarian sense. I am a modern classic liberal. You've read posts where I've describe myself as conservative in this sense, so clearly I get that. But that doesn't mean modern classic liberalism is tantamount to what conservatism was in the Old-Whig sense. Things change. John Stuart Mill was a classic liberal. He was one of the quintessential classic liberals. He was not a conservative as the term was used in his time. The conservatives were his enemy. Let's use a famous quote him on the subject:
I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.
- John Stuart Mill, pimp-slapping conservatives

Those terms did not have tantamount meaning in 1850. I already explained what happened to allow people who once were liberals to become called conservatives in my previous post. I'll refer you to that.
_EAllusion
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Re: Liberal gun violence. Rising?

Post by _EAllusion »

Incidentally, that Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy article also explains the nature of the split between classic liberalism and "new" liberalism that occurred in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
_ldsfaqs
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Re: Liberal gun violence. Rising?

Post by _ldsfaqs »

The thing that you are ignoring is that the "split" was only a partial split a SMALL segment of the party, and further that they combined with Democrats and others to create their "Progressive" movement. They were not even a "Republican" splinter movement. Just because the founder of it was such, and some of the major's and ideas in it, doesn't mean it was. Some similarity's is not the same, they were completely different. Likewise, Obama is not a Conservative just because he does and maybe believes in a couple of conservative things.
The Progressive movement of the past and today is a cabal of all kinds of people from all kinds of sides.

You falsely present the picture as if half the Republicans just became Liberal/Progressive in the modern sense.

Conservative/Republican values have always been the same. We are not responsible for the once in a while idiot, the few liberal republicans, the few who leave and start there own thing/party, or otherwise.

Really don't know what your point, because it certainly doesn't support your conclusion that today's Republican's are yesterday's racist Democrats/Progressives/Liberals. Classical Liberal is not and never has been the "new liberal". They are completely opposite ideology's. Classical Liberal is the original Conservative ideology.

Case in point.... We Republicans/Conservatives today believe in the same exact principles that Republican's, Lincoln, etc. in the past did.

.....that advocates limited government, constitutionalism, rule of law, due process, individual liberties including freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, and free markets.

We don't accept or believe in Yesterday's Democrat/Progressive ideology's, nor today's Liberal or Democrat.
Thus the charge and claim that we are "so and so" of the past, that we SWITCHED ideology's or party's a complete LIE...... What a "small" number of people did or might have done is not the entire party nor ideology. It's the same as when most blacks switched party's. They did so and had their reasons to do so, mostly because of Democrat "carrots" (and a couple of incident's by minority people in the party that alienated blacks), but that doesn't mean whatever they did for whatever reason is Republican or Democrat. They are an independent group that did their own thing and had their own mind.

Our beliefs are the same exact beliefs that I quote there concerning Classical Liberalism.
They aren't Progressive beliefs, they aren't today's liberal beliefs, they are Republican and Classical Liberal/Conservative of Yesterday and Republican and Conservative of today.
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_ldsfaqs
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Re: Liberal gun violence. Rising?

Post by _ldsfaqs »

Last edited by Guest on Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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_EAllusion
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Re: Liberal gun violence. Rising?

Post by _EAllusion »

Yeah, Lincoln was a real big fan of due process and first amendment rights.
_just me
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Re: Liberal gun violence. Rising?

Post by _just me »

This thread is effing hilarious!
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_ldsfaqs
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Re: Liberal gun violence. Rising?

Post by _ldsfaqs »

EAllusion wrote:Yeah, Lincoln was a real big fan of due process and first amendment rights.


Actually he was, and when you say otherwise by cherry-picking extreme exceptions to that truth, you make yourself a liar. Not only that, but everyone that was under that extreme decision ultimately had their due process. Sometimes in war, you simply must bend the rules some to accomplish the goal, because there is a "higher" rule, a higher law at play.

by the way, those last two link's I posted above, are phenomenal, especially the last one.
Would strongly recommend you all pull your heads out of the sand and watch to try and understand something outside of your box.
"Socialism is Rape and Capitalism is consensual sex" - Ben Shapiro
_Bond James Bond
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Re: Liberal gun violence. Rising?

Post by _Bond James Bond »

I have a deal for Ldsfaqs. This is great:

Alright we both live in states that are going to go for Romney, so our votes really don't matter. So I suggest that ldsfaqs votes for Obama and I'll vote for Romney. Whoever votes for the winning President quits the board for good.
Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded.-charity 3/7/07

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