Late Anger

[_Themis]

Hello Kishkumen,

It is good to be getting to know you. If I were to say I see great wisdom in your words (which I do), some of the posters would see evidence which needed to be attacked and questioned until they were satisfied they had won the debate. .....sigh (indeed!!)

Blessings,

jo

My thinking is not that the spiritual has no value(quite the opposite), but that it does not appear to be reliable as a means of learning objective truths. I tend to think if the physical evidence which my experience suggests a much higher reliability conflicts with my spirituality interpretations/understanding that maybe I should rethink my interpretations. I know many who don't.

[_Kishkumen]

My thinking is not that the spiritual has no value(quite the opposite), but that it does not appear to be reliable as a means of learning objective truths. I tend to think if the physical evidence which my experience suggests a much higher reliability conflicts with my spirituality interpretations/understanding that maybe I should rethink my interpretations. I know many who don't.

My apologies for attributing to you more negative thoughts about Franktalk than you now say you have. It could be that seeing too many of these conversations has blinded me to the uniqueness of this one.

[_Kishkumen]

Hello Kishkumen,

It is good to be getting to know you. If I were to say I see great wisdom in your words (which I do), some of the posters would see evidence which needed to be attacked and questioned until they were satisfied they had won the debate. .....sigh (indeed!!)

Blessings,

jo

It is good to get to know you too, jo. I appreciate the blessings as well.

[_Themis]

My thinking is not that the spiritual has no value(quite the opposite), but that it does not appear to be reliable as a means of learning objective truths. I tend to think if the physical evidence which my experience suggests a much higher reliability conflicts with my spirituality interpretations/understanding that maybe I should rethink my interpretations. I know many who don't.

My apologies for attributing to you more negative thoughts about Franktalk than you now say you have. It could be that seeing too many of these conversations has blinded me to the uniqueness of this one.

Understandable. I can be more combative them I mean to be and need to work on it. The spiritual experience/epistemology is an interesting topic, but it never seems to go anywhere in most discussions. Especially lately. Some of the more interesting posters don't post enough.

[_jo1952]

My thinking is not that the spiritual has no value(quite the opposite), but that it does not appear to be reliable as a means of learning objective truths. I tend to think if the physical evidence which my experience suggests a much higher reliability conflicts with my spirituality interpretations/understanding that maybe I should rethink my interpretations. I know many who don't.

Hello Themis!

I can identify with this. I think most of us do the same thing; weighing what we believe spiritually with what we belief physically. That is mostly what our journey in the physical is all about.

The longer I have been focused on the spiritual element of my journey, the less concerned I am about the physical. Though even this still needs to find a balance due to the reason I AM still in my body of flesh. Maybe a better way to express myself is that I now give more importance to the spiritual aspect of my existence as opposed to the physical aspect. As such, I am much more drawn to learning more spiritual Truth. Every day when I read the same passages I have read for years, I see more and more. The physical events portrayed in the Bible hold a spiritual interpretation; not just a physical interpretation. I like to spend more time pursuing the spiritual understandings; they are the ones which open my mind to a clearer and broader understanding of the Kingdom of God. My relationship with God is more fruitful. In turn this helps me to be able to know myself better for who I really am. This then helps me know who others really are. Ultimately, keeping the two great commandments becomes easier. This serves in other ways as well; my own personal healing progresses so that I am better prepared to turn from sin and turn to God instead. I am able to adjust my perspective, my thoughts, my actions, etc., as more Truth is revealed.

It is quite the journey!

Blessings to you, Themis. I love you! As I also love the other posters! Love is so consuming; while also having the ability to enlarge us. It is almost painful; but it is oh so sweet. These sound like contradictions; but they are not.

jo

[_jo1952]

It is good to get to know you too, jo. I appreciate the blessings as well.

God's love is at work here. And WE are the vehicles through which the Holy Spirit is working. This is a glimpse of what becoming One looks like.

For once I am speechless. (Now, isn't THAT a blessing!!)

Love,

jo

[_Themis]

Hello Themis!

I can identify with this. I think most of us do the same thing; weighing what we believe spiritually with what we belief physically. That is mostly what our journey in the physical is all about.

I think I may have a very different view of the spiritual and physical. I don't tend to separate them out and view the spiritual as very much a part of the physical. I think it is primarily probably a result of our physical bodies as well. The body and mind are so capable of producing amazing things, and I have no idea how anyone can really know what the body is fully capable of or what it's limitations are in relation to people's spiritual experiences. What I do think is very clear is how our physical senses are more reliable in the messages we interpret then the spiritual is, in relation to objective truths. Objective truth being mind independent and true for everyone. Humans have used our physical senses the best in figuring out what works, then other senses we might call spiritual. As such I really do think we shouldn't ignore what we know from a more reliable source. It usually is a good indicator we got something wrong from a less reliable source.

[_jo1952]

I think I may have a very different view of the spiritual and physical. I don't tend to separate them out and view the spiritual as very much a part of the physical. I think it is primarily probably a result of our physical bodies as well. The body and mind are so capable of producing amazing things, and I have no idea how anyone can really know what the body is fully capable of or what it's limitations are in relation to people's spiritual experiences. What I do think is very clear is how our physical senses are more reliable in the messages we interpret then the spiritual is, in relation to objective truths. Objective truth being mind independent and true for everyone. Humans have used our physical senses the best in figuring out what works, then other senses we might call spiritual. As such I really do think we shouldn't ignore what we know from a more reliable source. It usually is a good indicator we got something wrong from a less reliable source.

Hi Themis!

Isn't it amazing how our minds work! For as many bodies which have ever lived, now live, or will live, there are opinions and thoughts and learning which takes place which are unique to every one. Without our spirit dwelling in its body of flesh, our physical body would not even have life. We would not sense anything; our brains could not produce thoughts. We couldn't compare our thoughts with anyone else's. We would not be able to be objective or subjective about anything. When our body dies, all that was learned which had been stored inside of our physical brain cannot be retrieved from it. It is only our spirit which continues to exist and retain whatever learning took place.

As I see it, is our spirit which uses the physical body. Some do not have this awareness even though "awareness" is driven by the very presence of the spirit. At this point we are only able to learn from the physical realm which we experience with our physical body. It is not until our spirit does become aware of itself (the beginning of our spirit's rebirth), that we can begin to distinguish between the physical realm and the spiritual realm. That is when learning about the spiritual realm can take place even though our Teacher(s) cannot be seen.

Though some type of balance should be maintained while our flesh lives, it is the spiritual realm our spirit returns to. I choose to learn about both realms. However, I give precedence to spiritual learning because that is where my spirit came from and where it is going; and, it is my spirit which will retain what has been learned. Since I believe that my spirit will not be able to see or enter the Kingdom of God until it is completely awakened, and my desire is to be able to be in the presence of God again, He has become my priority.

So much to ponder and wonder and learn about!

Blessings,

jo

[_Themis]

Hi Themis!

Isn't it amazing how our minds work! For as many bodies which have ever lived, now live, or will live, there are opinions and thoughts and learning which takes place which are unique to every one. Without our spirit dwelling in its body of flesh, our physical body would not even have life. We would not sense anything; our brains could not produce thoughts. We couldn't compare our thoughts with anyone else's. We would not be able to be objective or subjective about anything. When our body dies, all that was learned which had been stored inside of our physical brain cannot be retrieved from it. It is only our spirit which continues to exist and retain whatever learning took place.

As I see it, is our spirit which uses the physical body. Some do not have this awareness even though "awareness" is driven by the very presence of the spirit. At this point we are only able to learn from the physical realm which we experience with our physical body. It is not until our spirit does become aware of itself (the beginning of our spirit's rebirth), that we can begin to distinguish between the physical realm and the spiritual realm. That is when learning about the spiritual realm can take place even though our Teacher(s) cannot be seen.

Though some type of balance should be maintained while our flesh lives, it is the spiritual realm our spirit returns to. I choose to learn about both realms. However, I give precedence to spiritual learning because that is where my spirit came from and where it is going; and, it is my spirit which will retain what has been learned. Since I believe that my spirit will not be able to see or enter the Kingdom of God until it is completely awakened, and my desire is to be able to be in the presence of God again, He has become my priority.

So much to ponder and wonder and learn about!

Blessings,

jo

This still brings up the question of how we know there is some spirit that is Independent of the body. Even if there is, it still brings up the other questions of what this spirit is capable of producing on it's own in regards to spiritual experiences, or what senses it is capable of. Many more questions then answers at this point.

[Guest]

This still brings up the question of how we know there is some spirit that is Independent of the body. Even if there is, it still brings up the other questions of what this spirit is capable of producing on it's own in regards to spiritual experiences, or what senses it is capable of. Many more questions then answers at this point.

Asking people on this board seems to be a waste of time. The ones who claim the ability to walk in the spirit you doubt their honesty. Or their ability to describe in terms you agree with the path to spirituality. Then there are the others who declare there is no path and it is all made up. The third area of investigation deals with direct contact with God the Spirit. It can be done by reading the scriptures. Might I suggest Romans and 1 John. I may have read them 50 to 100 times in the last couple of years. Have you read any scriptures that many times in the last two years? I will let you know that talking to God and reading scriptures gets your spirit all tuned up. Posting here does not. If you seek God and a spiritual path then do the things that will bring you there. It is like learning to fly an airplane. It is best to go to flight school and be around airplanes. Not to go to debates about aeronautics and hang around the beach.