Blixa wrote:I also don't understand what the imagined result of "we don't know" is supposed to be. It leaves all kind of terrible racial beliefs circulating among older members (and possibly the not so old as well) and looks extraordinarily disingenuous to the Gentile. I can't think of a good rationale for going down this road.
I don't understand how the members accept "we don't know". For the brethren to continue to maintain "we don't know" is to admit they do not communicate with God, at least in this matter.
I'm with you there. I'm extraordinarily baffled by it.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
Blixa wrote:I also don't understand what the imagined result of "we don't know" is supposed to be. It leaves all kind of terrible racial beliefs circulating among older members (and possibly the not so old as well) and looks extraordinarily disingenuous to the Gentile. I can't think of a good rationale for going down this road.
I don't understand how the members accept "we don't know". For the brethren to continue to maintain "we don't know" is to admit they do not communicate with God, at least in this matter.
Blixa wrote:I'm with you there. I'm extraordinarily baffled by it.
Perhaps the real meaning of the Mormon Moment is that the COB is like a 'rabbit caught in the headlights', and doesn't know how else to handle issues. "We don't know" is all they can think to say.
Craig Paxton wrote:When Elder Snow misrepresnded (I'm being kind) church doctine...he should have read up on first Presidency pronouncments....for clearly...before 1978...the church KNEW full well the reasons for the ban...
Here is a letter from the first presidency stating that it was not a policy but church doctrine..in fact a commandment from God Himself:
August 17, 1949
The attitude of the Church with reference to Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is NOT a matter of the declaration of a POLICY but of DIRECT COMMANDMENT FROM THE LORD, on which is FOUNDED THE DOCTRINE of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the priesthood at the present time. The prophets of the Lord have made several statements as to the operation of the principle. President Brigham Young said: “Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a SKIN OF BLACKNESS? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the holy priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the holy priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to.”
President Wilford Woodruff made the following statement: “The day will come when all that race will be redeemed and possess all the blessings which we now have.” The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the Church is kept in mind, namely, that THE CONDUCT OF SPIRITS IN THE PREMORTAL EXISTENCE has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality and that while the details of this principle have not been made known, the mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintain their first estate; and that the worth of the privilege is so great that spirits are willing to come to earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure; and that among the handicaps, failure of the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the Negroes.
George Albert Smith J. Reuben Clark David. O. McKay
1. Please tell me in this OFFICIAL pronouncement, what is actually "racist"???
Ask the current church leadership. They are the ones running from this doctrine.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die." - Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
Blixa wrote:Off the top of my head, I was thinking along the lines of your first suggestion: i.e., some earlier beliefs were the product of human speculation and not divinely revealed and therefore are more likely to have been embedded in the zeitgeist during which they were adopted.
Another possibility would be to "Adam God it" and talk about Brigham Young's racial beliefs in contrast to Joseph Smith's. Again, that's not a completely satisfactory explanation, but its still better than "we don't know."
Blixa, It appears we both agree the first possibility listed is the one which is the truth. It probably will be the best explanation in the long run. That explanation has the difficulty of overriding the list of precedents that Sock Puppet has posted above. If it succeeds it would be a blow to the kind of authority which claims to be beyond questioning. That would be a good thing but not a good thing that authority inclines to rush toward..
I read the second piece I quoted from your comments as "say Adam God did it." I thought that funny but probably only to exMormons. I read it over a couple of times before seeing you said something a bit different. But seeing Adam God is not currently active in Mormon culture blame could be placed upon him.
Craig Paxton wrote:When Elder Snow misrepresnded (I'm being kind) church doctine...he should have read up on first Presidency pronouncments....for clearly...before 1978...the church KNEW full well the reasons for the ban...
Here is a letter from the first presidency stating that it was not a policy but church doctrine..in fact a commandment from God Himself:
August 17, 1949
The attitude of the Church with reference to Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is NOT a matter of the declaration of a POLICY but of DIRECT COMMANDMENT FROM THE LORD, on which is FOUNDED THE DOCTRINE of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the priesthood at the present time. The prophets of the Lord have made several statements as to the operation of the principle. President Brigham Young said: “Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a SKIN OF BLACKNESS? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the holy priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the holy priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to.”
President Wilford Woodruff made the following statement: “The day will come when all that race will be redeemed and possess all the blessings which we now have.” The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the Church is kept in mind, namely, that THE CONDUCT OF SPIRITS IN THE PREMORTAL EXISTENCE has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality and that while the details of this principle have not been made known, the mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintain their first estate; and that the worth of the privilege is so great that spirits are willing to come to earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure; and that among the handicaps, failure of the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the Negroes.
George Albert Smith J. Reuben Clark David. O. McKay
1. Please tell me in this OFFICIAL pronouncement, what is actually "racist"???
It says black people cannot have the priesthood for no other reason than being black.
Blixa, It appears we both agree the first possibility listed is the one which is the truth. It probably will be the best explanation in the long run. That explanation has the difficulty of overriding the list of precedents that Sock Puppet has posted above. If it succeeds it would be a blow to the kind of authority which claims to be beyond questioning. That would be a good thing but not a good thing that authority inclines to rush toward..
I read the second piece I quoted from your comments as "say Adam God did it." I thought that funny but probably only to exMormons. I read it over a couple of times before seeing you said something a bit different. But seeing Adam God is not currently active in Mormon culture blame could be placed upon him.
You know, "Adam God Did It" is a great explanation for many things. That Adam God, boy, he sure had lots of mixed up ideas, now, didn't he?
I agree that taking the first line would put some dents in certain beliefs about authority, but I still can not understand how an organization with as much invested in PR can't come up with something better than the "we don't know" business.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
Blixa, It appears we both agree the first possibility listed is the one which is the truth. It probably will be the best explanation in the long run. That explanation has the difficulty of overriding the list of precedents that Sock Puppet has posted above. If it succeeds it would be a blow to the kind of authority which claims to be beyond questioning. That would be a good thing but not a good thing that authority inclines to rush toward..
I read the second piece I quoted from your comments as "say Adam God did it." I thought that funny but probably only to exMormons. I read it over a couple of times before seeing you said something a bit different. But seeing Adam God is not currently active in Mormon culture blame could be placed upon him.
You know, "Adam God Did It" is a great explanation for many things. That Adam God, boy, he sure had lots of mixed up ideas, now, didn't he?
I agree that taking the first line would put some dents in certain beliefs about authority, but I still can not understand how an organization with as much invested in PR can't come up with something better than the "we don't know" business.
Does this count as better?
1. We do know but think we should tell you that we don't. 2. We didn't ask, and we are not going to ask just because you want us to. or 3. We did ask and the reply was not something we can tell you about.
NOMinal member
Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."
We don't fully understand the reasons for this doctrine/policy" Really? Even my TBM wife gaged on that one...she sat up right and said...he's not telling the truth...
He's telling the straight up truth no matter how you slice it.
We don't fully understand the reasons for this doctrine/policy" Really? Even my TBM wife gaged on that one...she sat up right and said...he's not telling the truth...
He's telling the straight up truth no matter how you slice it.
So over time, the LDS Church has developed and learned stupidity? What was so certain, revelations and commandments from god are now not understood?
Is this a blood sugar stupor from too many cookies and Pepsi?