Another What's the Alternative Thread

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_KevinSim
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Re: Another What's the Alternative Thread

Post by _KevinSim »

krose wrote:Unless you count the continued existence of the human race, living in relative peace. That's what I work toward. While I don't believe I will continue to exist after death myself, I believe my positive contributions and influence can live on.

I'm glad to hear that. The world needs more people like you.

krose wrote:(And yes, I know the Earth will eventually burn up when our sun goes red giant, so "forever" isn't possible. But another five billion years isn't a bad run.)

Do you really think people won't discover how to leave Solar orbit in those five billion years? Or that they won't be able to find another planet suitable for human life?
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_Themis
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Re: Another What's the Alternative Thread

Post by _Themis »

KevinSim wrote:
Drifting wrote:Should be no problem for you to clearly articulate what 'real good' is then...

That doesn't necessarily follow. There are some terms in common usage that are pretty well understood that people would have a horrible time articulating.

For example, try coming up with a definition of the word true. Most people understand that term precisely, but I suspect they would have a hard time defining it without using synonyms. You can always go to the dictionary and get a definition of true, just like you can get a dictionary definition of good. But I think that's pretty unnecessary. If people really think about it they know what good means. And if they think it includes some things that other people find controversial, then they also know that they may be stretching the meaning of the word, even if they're firmly convinced they're right.

For the record, "http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/good?s=t" says, "morally excellent; virtuous; righteous; pious: a good man."


Why not just answer the question and stop dodging it. People gave examples and you said that they were not real good, and then people ask you what you think real good is. Just answer the question if you want a real discussion. Give some examples.
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_just me
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Re: Another What's the Alternative Thread

Post by _just me »

KevinSim wrote:
just me wrote:Then tell us what "real good" is, for crying out loud!

Just Me, why are you asking me to tell you what "real good" is?


Because you talk about it incessantly! Since it is the crux of all your arguments you should tell us what the heck you mean by it!

How do you get different "expectations from different people"?


You expect "atheists and agnostics" to tell you how they are going to preserve "some good things forever." BUT you cannot tell anyone how YOU or your "good god" intend to do so or what it even means!


If God exists then by definition God is preserving forever some good things.


CFR

All I want from an atheist group (or an agnostic group--are there any?), is a recognition that it needs to eventually get to the point where it can preserve forever some good things. That's not expecting different things from different people.


You are the only person I have ever heard talk this way in my life. You still haven't defined the thing.


If anything, God of necessity does more than the mentioned atheist groups; God has to deliver; all the atheist groups have to do is try to deliver, to make it as its goal to deliver.


Prove it. Prove that God is doing a damn thing. And please point me in the direction of the "atheist groups" of which you speak.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_KevinSim
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Re: Another What's the Alternative Thread

Post by _KevinSim »

Cylon wrote:It sounds like you're talking at least in part about my posts in that other thread, so let me clarify some misconceptions you seem to have. First off, my main question to you was not why your conscience would be so demanding, but why you thought that everybody else's consciences must be that demanding also. Here you are at least attempting to answer that question, but my only response is that just because you can't understand how someone can have a different form of conscientiousness than you do does not in any way prove that they can't.

Cylon, you've got a good point. Strictly speaking I don't know that other people's consciences will require them to do the same things my conscience requires me to do. But I guess I strongly doubt that other people's consciences are really so different from my conscience that it would make a difference on this matter.

Let me just say that if someone's conscience requires that person to look out for the welfare of some group of people, then it really seems unlikely to me that that conscience will allow that someone to limit her/his assistance to just that group of people.

Granted, we have limited resources, so sometimes we find ourselves unable to sponsor every malnourished child in the world. But then you hear of programs that have set goals to--as an organization--do some amount of good for very large groups of people (if not for everybody), and you think, "I can get behind that."

An example comes to mind of an organization that was going to attempt to build very simple computers, powered by hand cranks, that had the capacity to access the Internet, and that organization was going to try to get one into the hands of literally every child in the world. Things I've heard about that organization since then have led me to doubt that they've accomplished that goal at least as soon as they had intended to, but I haven't given up on them yet.

Anyhow, if we can't limit the people we're trying to help to just one group of people, how can we limit it to just the people of one generation?

Cylon wrote:I may very well be wrong in my understanding, but I fail to see how it makes me any less moral a person to recognize the possibility that the universe might not last into eternity.

It doesn't make you "any less moral a person." The universe very well might not "last into eternity," and there's nothing wrong with taking actions based on that possibility. But so much is unknown about our universe and the universes surrounding it, that I think it's incredibly premature to conclude that because our universe will have an end, that humanity is destined to die with it. Prepare for the death of humanity, by all means; but prepare also for the possibility that we will find a way to escape the maelstrom (/ heat death / whatever it is) and go on living somewhere else.
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_Fence Sitter
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Re: Another What's the Alternative Thread

Post by _Fence Sitter »

KevinSim wrote:I'm just the visionary. In fact, to be perfectly honest I don't think I have any business saying what preserving them entails. I'm not sure I have anything more substantial to add to the discussion than your golf example. No, it's got to involve a group discussion and some form of consensus building.


If you cannot articulate what they are then your question about alternatives makes no sense. Perhaps you know what your talking about but no one else does.

By the way when I bold a word without italics it means something, I just don't have any business saying what it means. :lol:
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_just me
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Re: Another What's the Alternative Thread

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Okay. The "good thing" that I want to preserve forever is equality. Economic equality and legal equality. Not just for Americans, but for all the human race.

Who wants to join me?

Oh yeah, before preserving it we actually have to acquire it. Who's with me?!
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_schreech
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Re: Another What's the Alternative Thread

Post by _schreech »

just me wrote:Okay. The "good thing" that I want to preserve forever is equality. Economic equality and legal equality. Not just for Americans, but for all the human race.

Who wants to join me?

Oh yeah, before preserving it we actually have to acquire it. Who's with me?!


I want to preserve peaches.
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_just me
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Re: Another What's the Alternative Thread

Post by _just me »

schreech wrote:
just me wrote:Okay. The "good thing" that I want to preserve forever is equality. Economic equality and legal equality. Not just for Americans, but for all the human race.

Who wants to join me?

Oh yeah, before preserving it we actually have to acquire it. Who's with me?!


I want to preserve peaches.


Mmmm! I love canning my own cranberry sauce.

ETA: Jarred food doesn't last forever, though. I've seen people try...
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_Themis
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Re: Another What's the Alternative Thread

Post by _Themis »

just me wrote:Okay. The "good thing" that I want to preserve forever is equality. Economic equality and legal equality. Not just for Americans, but for all the human race.

Who wants to join me?

Oh yeah, before preserving it we actually have to acquire it. Who's with me?!


To put it into general terms, and something most groups, religious or not, are trying to do as they see or understand it, is to improve the human condition.
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_cafe crema
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Re: Another What's the Alternative Thread

Post by _cafe crema »

KevinSim wrote: If some If no way of looking at life satisfies the conscience more than the LDS way of looking at it does, then what choice do we have but embrace the LDS way of looking at it?


I find absolutely nothing in the LDS way of looking at life that even remotely satisfies the conscience. And certainly nothing you've said in either thread.
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