Laban's death defies logic and reality

[_Drifting]

We are nearing....*pauses for effect*...an accord...

It's the confusion that I find the most unsettling aspect.

According to Mormonism (and probably other religions too) the Gospel is meant to be a clear and simple thing. Therefore, I believe, identifying what is 'right or wrong' from a Gospel point of view should be equally clear and simple.

But it isn't.

The Holy Ghost method of identifying truth is inconsistent, suspect and unreliable. As evidenced by the differing results generated by differing people following the same advice. I was at a convention where Paul H Dunn told his tales. The Holy Ghost, according to everyone I spoke to afterwards, had moved them and witnessed to them he spoke the truth.
We find out years later that actually he hadn't spoke the truth.

It should be consistent, it should be fool proof. It isn't.

First, this assumes everybody who tells you they felt the Spirit is being honest, and second, that everyone who has a witness identifies it correctly. For instance, one may be listening to his pastor preach about the Bible and Jesus, and gets a confirmation from the HG. The individual may then associate the witness to the pastor. Now the pastor later says Joseph Smith was a false prophet, and the individual is going to accept that based on their previous witness...yet that's not what the HG was telling them.

Like I said...unreliable...

[_Gordon]

Like I said...unreliable...

I believe it can be reliable. The key is not relying on others.

[_Drifting]

Like I said...unreliable...

I believe it can be reliable. The key is not relying on others.

Here's one for you.

I spent a long number of years earnestly seeking to know that the Book of Mormon was true. I complied with everything necessary to be worthy of that witness. Nothing. No response. No feelings, no sensations, nothing.

After a decade, on the spur of the moment, I changed the question to "is the Book of Mormon fake?". I got the sensation you described in a different thread/post when you were asked to describe what the burning in the bosom felt like.

[_Gordon]

I spent a long number of years earnestly seeking to know that the Book of Mormon was true. I complied with everything necessary to be worthy of that witness. Nothing. No response. No feelings, no sensations, nothing.

Perhaps you already knew.

I was trying to find a talk I recall reading that mentioned this, but without luck.

After a decade, on the spur of the moment, I changed the question to "is the Book of Mormon fake?". I got the sensation you described in a different thread/post when you were asked to describe what the burning in the bosom felt like.

Personally, I think you got a 'no' answer. That's more like the cold Vapor Rub that I mentioned earlier, with an empty feeling.

[_Chap]

I spent a long number of years earnestly seeking to know that the Book of Mormon was true. I complied with everything necessary to be worthy of that witness. Nothing. No response. No feelings, no sensations, nothing.

Perhaps you already knew.

I was trying to find a talk I recall reading that mentioned this, but without luck.

After a decade, on the spur of the moment, I changed the question to "is the Book of Mormon fake?". I got the sensation you described in a different thread/post when you were asked to describe what the burning in the bosom felt like.

Personally, I think you got a 'no' answer. That's more like the cold Vapor Rub that I mentioned earlier, with an empty feeling.

Is there anything that Drifting could write in a post on this board that would persuade you that he was after all recounting and interpreting his own experience correctly, even if his conclusions contradict your own?

[_Drifting]

I spent a long number of years earnestly seeking to know that the Book of Mormon was true. I complied with everything necessary to be worthy of that witness. Nothing. No response. No feelings, no sensations, nothing.

Perhaps you already knew.

I was trying to find a talk I recall reading that mentioned this, but without luck.

After a decade, on the spur of the moment, I changed the question to "is the Book of Mormon fake?". I got the sensation you described in a different thread/post when you were asked to describe what the burning in the bosom felt like.

Personally, I think you got a 'no' answer. That's more like the cold Vapor Rub that I mentioned earlier, with an empty feeling.

I know you want my experience to be something other than receiving a witness from the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon was a fake. But it was what it was. Following the 'burning in the bosom' my mind gained peace and my soul soared. I experienced a spiritual high, a relief from God that I had finally worked it out. I repeat, I complied fully with the criteria to be worthy of such a witness.

Now stop trying to reframe my experience and deal with it.

[_Drifting]

Is there anything that Drifting could write in a post on this board that would persuade you that he was after all recounting and interpreting his own experience correctly, even if his conclusions contradict your own?

The personal bias is strong in this one Lord Vader...

If I had written exactly the same post but the outcome was the Church being true, Gordon would have wholeheartedly agreed that I had experienced a witness from the Holy Ghost.
You see, it can only be the Holy Ghost when the answer given confirms what the Church currently teaches. Circular reasoning anyone...?

[_krose]

Speaking in tongues and the other activities you mention were very common in early LDS gatherings.

Yes, but I would say in a different manner.

Different how?

I'm sure it was somehow much more dignified and genuine.

[_just me]

I spent a long number of years earnestly seeking to know that the Book of Mormon was true. I complied with everything necessary to be worthy of that witness. Nothing. No response. No feelings, no sensations, nothing.

Perhaps you already knew.

I was trying to find a talk I recall reading that mentioned this, but without luck.

After a decade, on the spur of the moment, I changed the question to "is the Book of Mormon fake?". I got the sensation you described in a different thread/post when you were asked to describe what the burning in the bosom felt like.

Personally, I think you got a 'no' answer. That's more like the cold Vapor Rub that I mentioned earlier, with an empty feeling.

I know you want my experience to be something other than receiving a witness from the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon was a fake. But it was what it was. Following the 'burning in the bosom' my mind gained peace and my soul soared. I experienced a spiritual high, a relief from God that I had finally worked it out. I repeat, I complied fully with the criteria to be worthy of such a witness.

Now stop trying to reframe my experience and deal with it.

Actually, if god ignored you for 10 years of pleading and then only answered you when you asked if it was a fraud I think that makes him an ass.

[_sock puppet]

I spent a long number of years earnestly seeking to know that the Book of Mormon was true. I complied with everything necessary to be worthy of that witness. Nothing. No response. No feelings, no sensations, nothing.

Perhaps you already knew.

I was trying to find a talk I recall reading that mentioned this, but without luck.

After a decade, on the spur of the moment, I changed the question to "is the Book of Mormon fake?". I got the sensation you described in a different thread/post when you were asked to describe what the burning in the bosom felt like.

Personally, I think you got a 'no' answer. That's more like the cold Vapor Rub that I mentioned earlier, with an empty feeling.

Interesting that Drifting for the first time, after a decade of asking if Mormonism is true (asking it positively) gets no response, not even a stupor of thought/forgetfulness. But when he asks if it is not true (asking the negative proposition), then he at last gets the sensation. Now, Moroni 10:4-5 specifies it is to be asked as a negative proposition, not a positive one:

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

So all those times over a decade that Drifting was asking the positive proposition, no response. The first time he asks it properly per Moroni 10:4-5, as a negative proposition, he gets a response. The negative proposition is confirmed, that LDS claims are not true.

So burning bosom can be either a 'yes' or a 'no' answer, right? Depends on if it is like a hollow, 'Vapor Rub' sensation. Funny, D&C 9:9 says if the answer is itself negative, you'll get a stupor of thought and forgetfulness. But that's not what Drifting has described at all.

So if you perceive the emotional response to be positive more than sterile, medicinal in nature, then that is a 'LDS-is-true' answer. But if it is more sterile, medicinal (Vapor Rub-ish), then that is to the effect that the answer to the question, as framed, is itself negative.

This all boils down to being meaningless. Nonanswers. It's an emotion that the person experiencing chooses to interpret however. And for which interpretation, you've chosen what LDS people tell you how you should do so. You have put your 'faith' in the arm of their flesh. Which is itself a contradiction of the Book of Mormon. Oh, well. Party on.