"Colored brothers and sisters, Endowment House, 1875"

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_just me
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Re: "Colored brothers and sisters, Endowment House, 1875"

Post by _just me »

Fence Sitter wrote:You know, using Oaks reasoning, if the blacks were allowed to do baptisms for the dead in the temple then they had equality of opportunity when it came to temple access.


That's just the thing. I'm not sure that these proxies were black or not. But, it kinda looks like they opened up the Endowment House for one day of black baptisms for the dead. And they got counted on their own separate manuscript record.

Maybe I'll see if I can order the film. I'm curious now.

Why 1875? It's just interesting.

I thought Oaks claimed equality was satans plan?


:lol:
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_just me
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Re: "Colored brothers and sisters, Endowment House, 1875"

Post by _just me »

ldsfaqs wrote:Nothing new to us Mormons.....

Those of African Lineage as well as anyone else WERE able to do "Baptisms for the Dead".


I am LDS and this is new to me. :geek:
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_Rollo Tomasi
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Re: "Colored brothers and sisters, Endowment House, 1875"

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

ldsfaqs wrote:Nobody "officially" knows for sure.... At the time, they had several assumptions and views of why the ban existed, but no one actually knows, and many didn't know then, even though many thought they had an idea also. There were just as many who didn't know. Universal doctrines and truth unify the Church, not divide, further proving that whatever assumptions were not Church doctrine. The only actual doctrine was the ban itself. The reasons were never doctrine.

This is a bald-faced lie. Brigham Young, a man Mormons revere as a prophet, seer and revelator, said this on February 5, 1852 (emphasis mine and spelling corrected):

What is that mark? You will see it on the countenance of every African you ever did see upon the face of the earth, or ever will see. Now I tell you what I know; when the mark was put upon Cain, Abel's children were in all probability young; the Lord told Cain that he should not receive the blessings of the priesthood nor his seed, until the last of the posterity of Abel had received the priesthood, until the redemption of the earth. If there never was a prophet, or apostle of Jesus Christ spoke it before, I tell you, this people that are commonly called negroes are the children of old Cain. I know they are, I know that they cannot bear rule in the priesthood, for the curse on them was to remain upon them, until the residue of the posterity of Michael and his wife receive the blessings, the seed of Cain would have received had they not been cursed; and hold the keys of the priesthood, until the times of the restitution shall come, and the curse be wiped off from the earth, and from Michael's seed. Then Cain's seed will be had in remembrance, and the time come when that curse should be wiped off.

This was spoken by the then prophet, seer and revelator of the LDS Church, and his repeated use of the phrase "I know" and his reference to this doctrine not being said by any prior "prophet" or "apostle" (meaning he considered himself speaking in such roles in declaring this doctrine) is as OFFICIAL as it gets.

Your attempt at revisionist history is despicable and evidences the continuing racism in the LDS Church institution.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_Drifting
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Re: "Colored brothers and sisters, Endowment House, 1875"

Post by _Drifting »

Rollo, Brigham Young is dead so it's okay now to claim he was talking outta his ass...
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
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_Fence Sitter
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Re: "Colored brothers and sisters, Endowment House, 1875"

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Drifting wrote:
I thought Oaks claimed equality was satans plan?


Correct but evidently "Equality of opportunity" is God's plan. Under God's plan everyone can ride the bus, but women and minorities have to sit in the back.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Fence Sitter
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Re: "Colored brothers and sisters, Endowment House, 1875"

Post by _Fence Sitter »

just me wrote:
ldsfaqs wrote:Nothing new to us Mormons.....

Those of African Lineage as well as anyone else WERE able to do "Baptisms for the Dead".


I am LDS and this is new to me. :geek:


I am not sure of the time frame, but this is correct. Black were allowed to do baptisms for the dead pre 1978.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Rollo Tomasi
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Re: "Colored brothers and sisters, Endowment House, 1875"

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

ldsfaqs wrote:The only actual doctrine was the ban itself. The reasons were never doctrine.

Let me call "BS" on this again. In addition to the "blood of Cain" as a doctrinal basis for the priesthood ban (as I discussed in a post above), another doctrinal basis was presented in an official FP statement dated August 17, 1949. In the first paragraph, this statement asserts that the priesthood ban is doctrine (and not policy), and quotes Brigham Young in asserting that the priesthood ban stems from the curse of Cain. The second paragraph of the statement goes on to provide (emphasis mine):

The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the Church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the premortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality and that while the details of this principle have not been made known, the mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintain their first estate; and that the worth of the privilege is so great that spirits are willing to come to earth and taken on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure; and that among the handicaps, failure of the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the Negroes.

Thus, in addition to the curse of Cain, deprivation of the priesthood in this life also had to do with premortal conduct (i.e., the "less valiant" tripe).

If the LDS Church today actually wants anyone to believe the "We don't know" garbage, then the Brethren will have to repudiate all prior bases for the ban (both official and unofficial) proffered by previous Church leaders (including the 1949 FP Statement quoted above). To simply claim now that "we don't know," while allowing prior opposing statements (including an official FP Statement) to remain, means the LDS Church can never be believed on this issue.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_just me
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Re: "Colored brothers and sisters, Endowment House, 1875"

Post by _just me »

Fence Sitter wrote:
just me wrote:
I am LDS and this is new to me. :geek:


I am not sure of the time frame, but this is correct. Black were allowed to do baptisms for the dead pre 1978.


Do we know when the change occurred that only allowed men with the priesthood to participate in proxy work?

I mean, in the beginning, you just had to be a baptized member (and pay the clerk) to do baptisms for the dead. Plus, you could be proxy for a male or a female.
At some point that changed to only doing proxy work for your own sex. And, clearly, at some point it changed to where men had to hold the priesthood to do any temple ordinances (age 12 and up).

Just wondering where these changes are documented or discussed.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_Fence Sitter
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Re: "Colored brothers and sisters, Endowment House, 1875"

Post by _Fence Sitter »

just me wrote:
Do we know when the change occurred that only allowed men with the priesthood to participate in proxy work?

I mean, in the beginning, you just had to be a baptized member (and pay the clerk) to do baptisms for the dead. Plus, you could be proxy for a male or a female.
At some point that changed to only doing proxy work for your own sex. And, clearly, at some point it changed to where men had to hold the priesthood to do any temple ordinances (age 12 and up).

Just wondering where these changes are documented or discussed.


See the Dialogue article "Mormonism's Negro Doctrine: a historical Overview" by Lester Bush here:

http://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V08N01_13.pdf
at the bottom of page 38 and the top of page 39.

There is only a couple of paragraphs on it and it does not discuss how much it was actually practiced.
I can send you a pdf copy if you want.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_just me
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Re: "Colored brothers and sisters, Endowment House, 1875"

Post by _just me »

Oh, thanks FS! That is helpful. So, the policy was not uniformly applied through the ages.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
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