RockSlider wrote: That's strange, I though you wanted to expose him, now your story sharing buds?
I can hold a grudge for about, I suppose, five minutes? I have no intention to "expose" Everybody Wang Chung. He can post all the rat**** anti-Mormonism he wants on this board, and I'll leave him to his miserable, misguided fate. Other than that, I'm quite prepared to share with him experiences I've had which are very similar to his ancestor. The really weird thing is that I had these experiences as an ex-Mormon. But never mind. I don't know why I even bother posting here - but there you go.
Looking forward to another week of work, which is far more pleasant than posting here.
Here's how the story is told in Some Dreams Die: Utah's Ghost Towns and Lost Treasures (Salt Lake City, UT: Roaming the West, 1991), p. 19:
-----[BEGIN]----- During the 1860's, John Croslin, a convert to the Mormon Church, was hunting stray sheep in a canyon above Rowberry's Sawmill, which was located at Twin Springs, southwest of Lake Point [Lake Point was 13 miles northeast of Tooele, a Hell of a long way away from Brigham City--Ed.], when he came upon a ledge of quartz rock heavily criss-crossed with wire gold. In deference to Brigham Young's admonition against mining, Croslin didn't tell anyone where the ledge was and went directly to the Mormon leader. Young told Croslin that he wanted no gold mines anywhere near Salt Lake City: "If you Elders want to go gold mining, go and be damned. I would not give a picayune to keep you from damnation!" He added that a curse would befall Croslin or anyone who developed the golden ledge. Croslin returned to Lake Point, knowing full well the value of the ledge, but fearing the prophet's warning.
People at Rowberry's Sawmill and around Lake Point knew of his find, and thus he was hard-pressed for information. He was true to his promise not to work the golden ledge, but did admit that he knew where it was. Croslin once said that he could stand in the doorway of Rowberry's sawmill and look into the canyon where the ledge was hidden. When friends began to ridicule him, he answered, "You may think the gold is not there, but I have seen it every time I pass that place. I have seen it while following my sheep, and when looking for timber. It is still there!"
A few years later, when his brother-in-law began selling pieces of raw gold around Lake Point and Tooele, it was thought that Croslin had revealed the lost ledge to him. Then one day the other man's body was found at the edge of the foothills. Some said he must have been killed by Indians, but there wasn't a mark on his body. Croslin claimed it was Brigham Young's curse!
It wasn't long before Coslin [sic] himself was killed in a mill accident. After he died two youths, said to be his nephews, claimed to have a map he'd made. They may indeed have found the mine for they got into a fight, perhaps over the division of the gold, and one killed the other. The killer was banished from Utah with a warning never to return. Was it the curse?
Suddenly, Bill Hickman appeared and persuaded Croslin's widow to help him find the gold ledge. Federal marshals, who were on Hickman's trail for murder, forced him to flee for his life. He was pursued to Wyoming where he died or was killed, depending on who tells the story. Mrs. Croslin became an outcast because of her association with him. Still more of the curse?
Until Brigham Young died in 1877, no one dared search for the lost Croslin Ledge, and as far as I know, no one has looked for it since. But if you decide to look for it, be careful, for terrible things happen to those who look for Brigham Young's cursed mine! -----[END]-----
If there is a grain of truth to all this, I'd say that Brigham Young said whatever he said simply to keep the discoverer from filing a claim, then immediately sent his henchmen to retrieve the gold for himself. That would explain Neely never being able to find the gold again.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"
The funny thing about "Mormons", is that they're very slow to acknowledge supernatural experiences outside of Mormonism. In this regard, they're about as "secular" and skeptical as they come. And if something "supernatural" happens to an "unworthy" non or ex-Mormon, it can pretty well be discounted.
You think you have answers, Shades? Or is it just your bias?
Would it be possible, for even a smidgen of a thousandth of a second, for you to even consider something like this?:
RayAgostini wrote:You think you have answers, Shades? Or is it just your bias?
You tell me. Was it Neely, or was it Croslin? Was it found near Brigham City, or near Tooele? Did the gold merely disappear from sight, or did those who see it die? You think you have answers, Ray? Or is it just your bias?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"
Dr. Shades wrote:You tell me. Was it Neely, or was it Croslin? Was it found near Brigham City, or near Tooele? Did the gold merely disappear from sight, or did those who see it die? You think you have answers, Ray? Or is it just your bias?
Facts can easily become distorted or misremembered with the passing of time. I saw "UFOs" in 2001, but if you ask me for a specific date, I'll be at a total loss. Does that mean that I/we didn't see them? You're going to tell me that what I experienced firsthand, has no validity because I can't give you an exact date, or accurately name everyone who was present?
RayAgostini wrote:Facts can easily become distorted or misremembered with the passing of time. I saw "UFOs" in 2001, but if you ask me for a specific date, I'll be at a total loss. Does that mean that I/we didn't see them? You're going to tell me that what I experienced firsthand, has no validity because I can't give you an exact date, or accurately name everyone who was present?
Okay, I give. Who found the ledge, where was it found, was it pure gold or gold-inlaid quartz, what did Brigham Young say, could anyone see it again, and did anyone die?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"
RayAgostini wrote:... I saw "UFOs" in 2001, ... You're going to tell me that what I experienced firsthand, has no validity because I can't give you an exact date, or accurately name everyone who was present?
No, not for those reasons, or not primarily for those reasons.
And I wouldn't use the words 'no validity'. I'd prefer to say that the fact that you say on this board that you saw what you call 'UFOs' in 2001 is very unlikely to be ascribed significant weight in any conceivable practical decision I might be called on to make, or in the way I see the world in general.
But let's get back to the gold ledge story. If you want to talk about UFOs, why not start another thread?
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
RayAgostini wrote:Facts can easily become distorted or misremembered with the passing of time. I saw "UFOs" in 2001, but if you ask me for a specific date, I'll be at a total loss. Does that mean that I/we didn't see them? You're going to tell me that what I experienced firsthand, has no validity because I can't give you an exact date, or accurately name everyone who was present?
Okay, I give. Who found the ledge, where was it found, was it pure gold or gold-inlaid quartz, what did Brigham Young say, could anyone see it again, and did anyone die?
I see two different perspectives on this, which in my mind don't invalidate Neeley's experience. Young is the same one who thought that anyone who copulated with a "negro" was "worthy of death", so I don't place much credibility in his 19th century racism and bias, nor that fact that he "predicted" what would happen to the "gold slab", which doesn't at all mean that I disbelieve Neely, who I believe accurately reported what he had seen, or experienced. Nor do I believe that the "disappearance" had a single thing to do with Young's "prophecy". That's what Neely seems to have accepted, but based on his belief and trust in Young. I do however believe that what he reported, isn't at all rare, but I guess he didn't have access to Google.
Utah is full of stories of lost mines, protected by angels and indians, locations revealed by visions.
Considering the state was settled by the followers of a stone peeping treasure hunter, it makes sense. And just like with Joseph Smith no one ever actually finds the treasure.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.
Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality. ~Bill Hamblin