Allowing transexuals into the Mormon church?

[_Joeyslaptop]

Confirmed: a hermaphrodite is typically born with a XXY chromosome combo.

Some people are considered hermaphrodites if they were born with both a penis and a vagina due to a drastic hormone imbalance and usually undescended testicles. So, you may see the term "true hermaphrodite" used to denote the XXY combo, but not always. Both situations are included within the inter-sex category. Additionally, in some rare cases, people decide they want their sexual assignment surgery to be both penis and vagina and can find a doctor who will do it. These people are still men or women by virtue of their chromosomes, but can no longer function in that capacity.

I knew a man who had cancer and had to have his genitals removed. He was still permitted to participate as a priesthood holder, go to the temple, remain in a celestial marriage to his wife, etc. I suspect that if he would have decided at that point that he wanted to have a surgery to complete the transformation, the church would have viewed it in a different light.

People who have had gender-changing surgery are called transsexuals. Many transsexuals don't ever complete their physical transformation surgeries. After hormone treatments, they're left with a small penis that doesn't really work and enlarged breasts. I don't think that the church allows these people to be baptized due to the disfiguring of their bodies(unless showing that they have repented and corrected the issue(?)). My brother had a breast begin to grow after taking some weight-gain pills that were one step away from steroids. He had it surgically removed. Many boys who hit puberty begin to get breast buds or tender nipples that go away after a while.

I know this has been a bit of a ramble, but I once met a missionary online who baptized a man who was clearly a man who had been born with an extreme hormone imbalance. His parents wanted a girl; so, they had the penis removed, and he grew up believing that he was a girl. Then once puberty set in, he began to show all of the characteristics of a man. He was baptized as a girl (his chosen sex) into the LDS church, and showed up to church in a dress as well. He quit coming to church after a few times though.

My opinion as a member of the LDS church:
Do I think a hermaphrodite should be able to be a member and marry in the temple?
Be a member?:

I think any true hermaphrodite (XXY) should be allowed to be baptized regardless of their identity.

With any non-chromosomal issues, our best attempt (through DNA testing if possible) should decide the sex of the person. If they can choose to accept their natural sex as their identity and leave any accidental/erroneous homosexual relationship that they might be in, then they should be permitted to be baptized. I think that they should be encouraged to make their natural sex more obvious through hormone or other medical treatments/prescriptions (fix their hormone imbalance if possible and maybe even have corrective/reparative surgery - but I wouldn't push it on them, just encourage).

Priesthood and Marriage:

It depends on a few factors: can they inseminate or can they carry a baby? If they can do one or the other, then they could hold the priesthood (if male and identifying as male) and marry a member of the opposite sex.

If their reproductive organs don't function at all, and they're XXY, I would allow them to serve in church callings that are gender neutral (like activities chairperson, sunday-school or primary teacher, librarian, etc.), but wouldn't allow them the priesthood or allow them to go through the temple. We would help them to progress through the gospel as much as possible, and count on the resurrection and the millennium for them to be able to receive those blessings if they were faithful in this life.

We have many single older women in the church who never have the opportunity to get married or sealed in the temple; however, we have been told that if they remain faithful and righteous, that they'll have the opportunity for those blessings later. I believe that the same promise would apply to all hermaphrodite members.

Prop 8:

I don't think that Prop 8 has anything to do with this other than acknowledge the doctrine found in The Family: a Proclamation to The World that states that gender was assigned to us before this life and that we'll continue to have that gender assigned to us after this life. It denotes that gender plays a part of our eternal roles and don't solely exist for the purposes of procreation in this life. "Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." - http://LDS.org/library/display/0,4945,1 ... -1,00.html

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

Interesting reads from Uncle Dale and a few others...

I will be honest, I posted that pic while browsing the slamtoons at salamdersociety.com. I LOL when I saw it and decided to post just to have some fun.

I did not know that there were actual cases of humans born with both a penis and vagina. Up until today, I thought that transexuals were men who either took estrogen to grow breasts and/or had implants just so they could get other work in the porn/freak-show industry. Most of the "tranny" images that I have seen is just that, a male with breast implants.

I now know that there are real Hermaphrodites in the world.

You need to watch more cable TV. Transexuals nowadays (men and women) get all kinds of plastic surgery to the point where they actually look like the sex they want to be.

I worked with a girl decades ago who had been born a hermaprodite. And into a Mormon family. Apparently, in these cases medical advice is usually to raise the child as a girl, but this family had enough girls and wanted a boy. When I knew her, she had decided she should have been a girl and had undergoing surgery. She was a very confused young lady in many respects. I don't remember what her standing in the church may have been at that point. I sure hope things went well for her.

[_Serve with fire]

Posted on behalf of my sister

Satan cackled in glee, rubbing his hands together "What marvelous sport, to take one of God's
most beautiful daughters and in her mother's womb twist her. How purely evil, what delicious
torment" Watch her squirm as the years pass, lost and alone, confined to the edge, confined to
hate and fear. Yet still she clutches her faith, holding onto the Word of God with all her might.
She knows in her heart and soul that she is a woman, but her body has been warped. She
decides that she must act before it is too late, yet the feeble minded King Priests don't realize
the evil done to her before her birth, they deny her, tell her she is evil and satan's spawn. She
changes herself to match her spirit, she is expelled with hate and fear, yet still she is faithful,
still she is true to her Lord.

Still in the spring morning, she clutches her scriptures, hoping against hope that God's will will
be known, his true will, not the will of the King, conveniently misinterpreted by the
King-Priests. She knows that God's still small voice was drowned out by the overpowering rage
and humiliation that drove the King's soul. "Not my son, NOT MY SON, YOU HAVE KILLED MY
SON, YOU ARE SATAN" He does not know of the evil done to his daughter in her mother's
womb. She remains faithful and she feels God's will driving her and succouring her in his
grand plan for her rapture. She repeats her mantra to herself, knowing in her heart it's
righteousness. "serve with fire, serve your Lord"

The long road she walked, tentatively taking the first steps into the unknown. Stripped of her
family and Church she held onto her faith, between herself and God. She knew the church was
true in her heart of hearts, but she also remembered her mentor telling her that the mistakes
of the past were because of the people, not the Lord. Long the road is and without her family
very hard, but walk it she did. She emerged like chrysalis flowering in the storm, God's
daughter beautiful and true as she was meant to be. The patterns in her mind emerged,
flowering as they had long been denied. She was a woman finally in spirit and body.

The long fruitless years that she spent in the wilderness are finally over, she is free and
returned to the bosom of her God. happily she skips, smiling and calling out to friends, truly
free and finally whole. She runs free, touching all the things so long denied her, love, marriage,
joy and freedom. She joyously jumps into the arms of her soulmate, tears of happiness
streaming down her beautiful face, her unmitigated love and devotion to her God finally
realized. Tears streaming she writes this hoping that that day comes soon, her emancipation
from satan's will. God's beautiful, clean and pure daughter released to her true spirit and
destiny. Satan's will undone, God's victory assured.

There is a moment in all our lives that we each face alone. The Church and family have
deserted us, satan looms in final victory. We look up in fear, uncertainty and despair, we are
done and nothing matters anymore. satan's plans realized, God's daughter dies alone,
unwanted and unloved. According to the church we are his spawn, we transsexuals. We who
scream to God every minute of every day how unjust this life is, how badly we have been and
are mistreated by our fellows. The mighty King-Priests stand in judgement of us and sentence
us to damnation, satan stands at their side rubbing his hands together cackling with glee. We
are not worthy, we are found lacking, we are dirt. satan is triumphant. She dies alone.

The flower wilts.

The forgotten Daughters of God.

The picture at the start of this post sums it up nicely, The ugliness inside, satans will realized.

This daughter is coming home, mans feeble attempts to thwart God's will, undone finally in the
end

So stand you proud you Sons of God. Laugh at the fate of the lost daughters. revel in their
misery, laugh at their tears, be joyous in their desolation, for you are free and they are pathetic
and lost. They are dirt in the eyes of God you say, you are triumphant you King priests,
standing in judgement, God's mouth-pieces. God's chosen. We shall go off into the darkness,
we are lost and unwanted. hated and despised. We God's daughters of damnation.

But we shall still clutch our scriptures, we still believe, even though we are damned, we still
love Jesus. We are still beautiful to Him.

[_Chap]

I do not think any religion has anything interesting or worthwhile so say that relates specifically to tough issues arising from gender ambiguity or gender reassignment.

If people from a religion based perspective feel moved to speak to or about people undergoing difficult experiences in these areas in a kind or supportive way, or even to give them support, that's fine by me. You don't need a religion to act decently, but if that's what motivates you to act decently, why should I object?

When on the other hand religions claim to have a superior basis for informing such people what they should or should not do, or condemning them for what they have done or even for what they are, then I don't feel they deserve much courtesy or respect.

[_Drifting]

How does a Mormon Hermaphrodite get on in the Temple?
Which garb do they dress up in?
What side of the aisle do they sit on?
Do they cover their faces during the prayer or not?

Is the Mormon Hermaphrodite guilty of same sex attraction regardless of which gender they are attracted to?

[_sock puppet]

I do not think any religion has anything interesting or worthwhile so say that relates specifically to tough issues arising from gender ambiguity or gender reassignment.

No but baby hermaphrodites pose an interesting quagmire for a religion that supposes deity assigns genders.

[_lulu]

Repost
An oldy but a goody

Why don't we start with what's observable, reproducable, measurable and falsifiable.

xo
xx
xy
xy female
xyy
xxy
xxx
xxxy
congenital adrenal hyperplasia due to 21-hydroxylase deficiency
congenital adrenal hyperplasia due to17α-hydroxylase deficiency
Progestin-induced virilisation
Androgen insensitivity syndrome
5-alpha-reductase deficiency
Persistent Müllerian duct syndrome
de la Chapelle syndrome
Mosaicism xx & xy
chimerism xx & xy

Who should be eligable for ordination?
Why or why not?

And I might add, who gets to marry each other?
Why or why not?

And we haven't even reached the effects of pre-natal maternal hormones on fetal brain development yet.

Let alone, transexuals.

[_palerobber]

Repost
An oldy but a goody

Why don't we start with what's observable, reproducable, measurable and falsifiable.

xo
xx
xy
xy female
xyy
xxy
xxx
xxxy
congenital adrenal hyperplasia due to 21-hydroxylase deficiency
congenital adrenal hyperplasia due to17α-hydroxylase deficiency
Progestin-induced virilisation
Androgen insensitivity syndrome
5-alpha-reductase deficiency
Persistent Müllerian duct syndrome
de la Chapelle syndrome
Mosaicism xx & xy
chimerism xx & xy

Who should be eligable for ordination?
Why or why not?

And I might add, who gets to marry each other?
Why or why not?

And we haven't even reached the effects of pre-natal maternal hormones on fetal brain development yet.

Let alone, transexuals.

did anyone attempt to respond?

i think it's a great question. it's easy to forget that even if you set aside the question of whether sexual orientation or gender identity are inborn, the doctrine of eternal gender is still hopelessly inadequate in the face of other unambiguously inborn traits.

[_palerobber]

Up until today, I thought that transexuals were men who either took estrogen to grow breasts and/or had implants just so they could get other work in the porn/freak-show industry. Most of the "tranny" images that I have seen is just that, a male with breast implants.

let me get this straight...
because you've looked at transsexual porn, you assumed all transsexuals transition so that they can appear in porn?

this raises the question: what do you think "women" are? : )

[_Drifting]

"Good morning Drifting how can I help you?'
"Well Bishop, I have a dilemma. As you know, next week I turn twelve and I'm a bit worried about receiving the Priesthood."
"Oh, okay. There's really nothing to worry about. It's only the power and authority to act in God's name and preside over women....err....forget that last bit would you?"
"Thanks, but that's not the issue."
"Well Drifting, I'm a judge in Israel and you can tell me anything you need to."
"Well Bishop, I have two front bums..."
*a period of silence comes over the meeting*
"Ehm, Err, Drifting I don't know if you study biology at school but one is called a penis and one is called an anus. Does that help."
"Not really Bishop, I have two FRONT bums. Does that help?"
*a long period of silence comes over the meeting*
"Two...front...err...right"
*Bishop starts perspiring*
*cough*
*starts flicking frantically through The Church Handbook of Instruction*
"So Bishop, am I a boy or a girl? Do I get the Priesthood or Homemaking?"