My First Post (why I'm here and the Gadianton Robbers)

[_Kishkumen]

I'm sorry? Obama has been involved in murder to gain political power?

Oh well, it's only bcspace I suppose. Nothing serious.

Yep. Another victim of the disease.

[_Chap]

I'm sorry? Obama has been involved in murder to gain political power?

Oh well, it's only bcspace I suppose. Nothing serious.

Yep. Another victim of the disease.

The amount of serious crazy in US politics (in the sense of seriously crazy stuff that is nevertheless taken seriously by large numbers of people) seems to be steadily increasing. I have a hard time locating anything as bizarre that is as widely discussed in the politics of major European countries with advanced economies.

What could be the reason for this?

[_Drifting]

This is my first post. Allow me to explain where I am right now in terms of my level of belief. I believe in the Gospel as taught by the LDS Church but am beginning to question whether the Church is "true." I have had very strong experiences with God and with the Holy Spirit that make it impossible for me to doubt that God lives. I also believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet who was called to Restore the Lord's Church on the Earth. Whether Joseph remained a prophet or whether he "fell" by the end of his life is not clear to me. I think that The Keys were passed to the Twelve before Joseph fell, if he did fall, and thus, the Church's authority was preserved. I think the Keys are probably still with the Church, though I do not know if they are being actively "used." I believe that Church doctrine is true. I do not believe, however, that Church culture is true. I even believe that what you hear in Church on the local level is mostly true. I worry about The Corporation, though.

I came here because I want a forum for discussing my religion without having to "come out of the closet" to anyone whom I know in real life about my doubts and thoughts.

The thing that led me to this forum was my desire to have a place to discuss Mitt Romney's run for President. After reading much about the Gadianton Robbers in preparation for teaching Gospel Doctrine this past Sunday, I had to ask myself; isn't Mitt Romney about as big a Gadianton Robber as there is? In a country where the only two candidates for President in 2004 were members of Skull & Bones, I don't think you get a major party nomination without being part of The Conspiracy. Don't we read in the Book of Mormon that Gadianton Robbers will be present in every nation on Earth during the last days? Why don't LDS people seem to care about this? President Benson said back in the 60s that the great secret combination was Communism. President Hinckley made a vague reference to Muslim terrorists as Gadianton Robbers in the October 2001 Conference. But nobody seems to be willing to talk about the idea that secret combinations are alive and well here in the U.S. of A. And if Mitt Romney is one of them, does that mean that some of his most ardent supporters in the Church are in the "secret combination" too?

I keep asking myself if it matters. I think the Church is doing a bang-up job playing the part of the haughty daughter of Zion in Isaiah 3. Most in the Church would say that the state of the Church is currently found in Isaiah 4. But the falsity, pretentiousness, and material-obsessedness of it all makes me think that the Church is in Isaiah 3.

Good morning Henry and welcome.
You seem to be inventing scenario's to deal with the fact that you have lost faith in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints but still want to believe.

1. Joseph fell ill
2. The leaders today have the keys but don't use them
3. The Church is true locally but maybe not corporately

There is no basis for these three scenario's that you present.
If you believe God exists you need to ask why God has chosen to stand by and allow the three things you suggest as possibilities to explain away why the Church doesn't stack up against what it purports to be.

Let me ask you:
Do you believe that secret handshakes and names will be an entry test before you can be allowed into the Celestial Kingdom?
If you don't then you don't believe in Mormonism.

[_Bob Loblaw]

Infatuation with conspiracy theories is, in my opinion, an unproductive fixation.

Just my 2 cents.

Agreed. The fixation on conspiracy theories stems from a fear of the random. We don't like to think that big things can be caused by small, insignificant events or people, often randomly, so we invent conspiracies to reassure ourselves that there is a reason behind everything. But life is often random, and sometimes a Mark Chapman or John Hinckley or Lee Oswald can change history without a conspiracy.

[_Henry McClean]

My first recommendation would be to stop thinking so literally about secret combinations. We have folks like President Ezra T. Benson to thank for this preoccupation with modern Gadiantons. Benson, of course, was referring to Communism. Benson was a fanatical anti-Communist and sympathizer with the political cult known as the John Birch Society.

It sounds like you're saying that it doesn't matter to you whether literal secret combinations exist or not. I think it matters, though I'm not sure what to do about it or if anything should be done about it. I agree about Benson. It's interesting how people become the thing that they despise almost without knowing it. Such was the case with Benson.

I would recommend, instead, that you consider the teachings of the endowment regarding property. Reread the account of Cain in the Book of Moses. Review Hugh Nibley's Approaching Zion. There is a more profound idea concerning the conflict between greed and altruism, or of privileging material gain over the welfare of fellow human beings, that underlies all of these teachings about secret combinations, oaths with Satan, and so forth.

As a rule, I never read Nibley. As for the conflict between greed and altruism, I will keep that duality in mind next time I read stuff about secret combinations.

The sickness that leads to secret combinations is the lust for power and gain. It is this lust for power and gain that is the real problem. Infatuation with conspiracy theories is, in my opinion, an unproductive fixation.

Just my 2 cents.

My question is this: if a grand Secret Combination exists that his infiltrated the government, the media, the financial sector, and even the Church, should that matter to the average TBM, NOM, exmo, or nevermo? If it doesn't matter then there's no point in discussing it. But if it does matter then it's a pretty big deal.

[_Henry McClean]

Welcome Henry. Do you take the BoMormon to be historically accurate?

Whether I believe that the Book of Mormon is historically accurate or not is completely irrelevant to either its historical accuracy or what I might gain from reading it. There certainly isn't any scientific evidence of its historical accuracy.

[_Henry McClean]

I'm not sure if you should or should not read Damon Smith's "the book of mammon". He does his own speculation about the Olympics, Mitt Romney, and presidential politics.

Thanks for the reference. Perhaps I will check it out at some point. I will let you know if I do.

[_Henry McClean]

I had to ask myself; isn't Mitt Romney about as big a Gadianton Robber as there is?

It's possible, but not very likely. If he were, the Democrats are a hundred times worse. Recall that the Gadianton robbers were born from an organization which believed they could subvert the law and even murder to gain control of the government. This is also an apt description of Obama, Al Gore, John Kerry, Bill Clinton, Harry Reid, and all the Democrats.

Wow. This post is an excellent example of why I chose to bring this topic to a random, anonymous internet message board instead of trying to discuss it with people in real life. Do you see what you just did there, bcspace? "It's possible, but not very likely." You admit that Mitt Romney might be a Gadianton Robber. "If he were, the Democrats are a hundred times worse." Excuse me? How can one Gadianton Robber be "a hundred times worse" than another. Either a person has taken "the oath" (whatever it may be) or he hasn't. If Mitt Romney has taken the oath then he's every bit as bad as "the Democrats." There is no gray area between "the good guy Gadianton Robbers" and "the bad guy Gadianton Robbers."

Why did President Eisenhower, the last Republican President to go to the trouble of balancing the budget, warn the U.S. people of the rise of what he called the Military-Industrial Complex in his last address to the nation? And when you look at the record of recent Republican Presidents in getting us into wars, don't we have to wonder what's going on behind the scenes? Pinning "Gadianton Robber" status solely on the Democrats is extremely short-sighted.

The Church doesn't appear to be causing any of this though of course some members have such problems. In fact, all the members are sinners which is why we go to Church in the first place.

The Church doesn't appear to be causing any of what? Too ambiguous.

[_Henry McClean]

The amount of serious crazy in US politics (in the sense of seriously crazy stuff that is nevertheless taken seriously by large numbers of people) seems to be steadily increasing. I have a hard time locating anything as bizarre that is as widely discussed in the politics of major European countries with advanced economies.

What could be the reason for this?

I recognize that you're partially talking about me. That being said, it is a good question. Do you regularly read the news of European countries with advanced economies? If so, which ones? Do you read the news in English or in another language? I'm just trying to get a sense of your point of reference.

[_Tim the Enchanter]

My question is this: if a grand Secret Combination exists that his infiltrated the government, the media, the financial sector, and even the Church, should that matter to the average TBM, NOM, exmo, or nevermo? If it doesn't matter then there's no point in discussing it. But if it does matter then it's a pretty big deal.

No. If there is a Secret Combination on the scale you mention, it does not matter to the average TBM, NOM, exmo, or nevermo.

My reasons for thinking this is what I call the "Needle in the Haystack Problem."

Say there is a grand secret combination that has infiltrated the government, media, financial sector, and the church. Who are you to them? Why would their conspiratorial cross-hairs ever be fixed on you? What makes you different than your neighbor, they guy across town, everyone in your city, your state, or your country? If you are just a number among hundreds of millions to the Secret Combination, why would the black helicopters ever be circling above your roof? If you are 'average,' why would you ever be a target for their nefariousness? I don't believe you would. For this reason, the average TBM, NOM, exmo, or nevermo has nothing to worry about, even if there is a Secret Combination like you describe (and I don't think there is anyway).