Tobin wrote:Apologists who claim the Book of Abraham is a translation of the papyri are nuts anyway. There is NO reason to believe it at all. The fact is the papyri aren't old enough to have been written by the hand of Abrahsm. That should be their first clue. The next clue is the Egyptians, who were pagans, would have no reason to perserve an account by Abraham what-so-ever. The Book of Abraham is a revealed text and Joseph Smith's speculations about the papyri is an entirely different matter (and a foolish endeavor on his and other's part). Apologists need to stop playing game and recognize what they are doing doesn't make any sense and will only make them look foolish in the end.
The KEP shows the Book of Abraham (Chap 1-2:18) is an incorrectly translated text and shows how they were attempting to translate that portion of the Book of Abraham from Egyptian to English.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Tobin wrote:Apologists who claim the Book of Abraham is a translation of the papyri are nuts anyway. There is NO reason to believe it at all. The fact is the papyri aren't old enough to have been written by the hand of Abrahsm. That should be their first clue. The next clue is the Egyptians, who were pagans, would have no reason to perserve an account by Abraham what-so-ever. The Book of Abraham is a revealed text and Joseph Smith's speculations about the papyri is an entirely different matter (and a foolish endeavor on his and other's part). Apologists need to stop playing game and recognize what they are doing doesn't make any sense and will only make them look foolish in the end.
The KEP shows the Book of Abraham (Chap 1-2:18) is an incorrectly translated text and shows how they were attempting to translate that portion of the Book of Abraham from Egyptian to English.
The KEP is a joke. The premise is that Joseph Smith could read Egyptian Hieroglyphics (and reformed Egyptian in the case of the Book of Mormon) in order to translate. That is NOT how he translated. He had no understanding of those languages. The whole thing is preposterous from the start and completely laughable.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
SteelHead wrote:Except that the Book of Abraham as a revealed text goes contrary to what Joseph Smith said was happening.
Not really. Joseph Smith revealed texts by the gift and power of God, not by understanding ancient languages.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
SteelHead wrote:So when his scribe wrote that they were engaged in the work of translating the papyri, he misspoke?
Yes, the scribe had no idea what he was looking at and at that time, neither did Joseph Smith. They are pagan Egyptian papyri and have NOTHING to do with the Book of Abraham. And the facts back that up too.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Now why is your admission that the papyri contain nothing about Abraham, the basis for any a "stronger" defense for the validity of the Book of Abraham than any of the other theories?
Last edited by Guest on Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.
Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality. ~Bill Hamblin
Tobin wrote: The KEP is a joke. The premise is that Joseph Smith could read Egyptian Hieroglyphics (and reformed Egyptian in the case of the Book of Mormon) in order to translate. That is NOT how he translated. He had no understanding of those languages. The whole thing is preposterous from the start and completely laughable.
There is no 'premise'. We have the KEP and we can analyze his methodology and see his results. He translated Abr 1-2:18 using the EA, Gael & translation manuscripts. The opening handwritten line on AB1/MS No.1 is "Translation of the Book of Abraham written in his own hand upon papyrus .....". Adjacent to the lines in the left margin of the manuscript are hieratic text from PJS 1.2. It is the translation Joseph Smith produced for Abr 1-2:18.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Tobin wrote: The KEP is a joke. The premise is that Joseph Smith could read Egyptian Hieroglyphics (and reformed Egyptian in the case of the Book of Mormon) in order to translate. That is NOT how he translated. He had no understanding of those languages. The whole thing is preposterous from the start and completely laughable.
There is no 'premise'. We have the KEP and we can analyze his methodology and see his results. He translated Abr 1-2:18 using the EA, Gael & translation manuscripts. The opening handwritten line on AB1/MS No.1 is "Translation of the Book of Abraham written in his own hand upon papyrus .....". Adjacent to the lines in the left margin of the manuscript are hieratic text from PJS 1.2. It is the translation Joseph Smith produced for Abr 1-2:18.
Let me repeat again, since you don't seem to get it. Joseph Smith revealed texts by the gift and power of God, not by understanding the languages.
Joseph Smith had no knowldege of Egyptian Hieroglyphics. Your position is completely ludicrous on its face. You then make it even more preposterous by mistaking Joseph Smith's attempts at figuring out a language he clearly didn't know as him attempting to translate the papyri. You are getting it completely backwards. God revealed the Book of Abraham to Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith was attempting to figure out Egyptian Hieroglyphics (unsuccessfully I might add) from what was revealed.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Now why is your admission that the papyri contain nothing about Abraham, the basis for any a "stronger" defense for the validity of the Book of Abraham than any of the other theories?
It's a revealed text like the Book of Mormon. If you want to know that it is a revealed text, like the Book of Mormon, talk to God about it (and feelings aren't sufficient here). If God tells you it is revealed and from him, then believe it. If not, don't. It's that simple.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
