Tobin wrote: Let me repeat again, since you don't seem to get it. Joseph Smith revealed texts by the gift and power of God, not by understanding the languages.
Joseph Smith had no knowldege of Egyptian Hieroglyphics. Your position is completely ludicrous on its face. You then make it even more preposterous by mistaking Joseph Smith's attempts at figuring out a language he clearly didn't know as him attempting to translate the papyri. You are getting it completely backwards. God revealed the Book of Abraham to Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith was attempting to figure out Egyptian Hieroglyphics (unsuccessfully I might add) from what was revealed.
I understand quite well. You are making unsupported assertions that are not backed up by the historical evidence.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Tobin wrote: Let me repeat again, since you don't seem to get it. Joseph Smith revealed texts by the gift and power of God, not by understanding the languages.
Joseph Smith had no knowldege of Egyptian Hieroglyphics. Your position is completely ludicrous on its face. You then make it even more preposterous by mistaking Joseph Smith's attempts at figuring out a language he clearly didn't know as him attempting to translate the papyri. You are getting it completely backwards. God revealed the Book of Abraham to Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith was attempting to figure out Egyptian Hieroglyphics (unsuccessfully I might add) from what was revealed.
I understand quite well. You are making unsupported assertions that are not backed up by the historical evidence.
I have to ask, what planet are you from and not know that Joseph Smith translated by the gift and power of God? I'm sorry but your statement is frankly idiotic. To quote the Book of Mormon Introduction
In due coure the plates were delivered to Joseph Smith, who translated them by the gift and power of God.
The same is true of the Book of Abraham. Answer one question for me please. Who taught Joseph Smith Egyptian Hieroglyphics and when did they do this?
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
He tried to translate it and couldn't. Feel free to make up what ever you want to explain his actions. I have provided evidence of what he did and you continue to respond with assertions of what he couldn't do.
We agree he could not translate Egyptian.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Now why is your admission that the papyri contain nothing about Abraham, the basis for any a "stronger" defense for the validity of the Book of Abraham than any of the other theories?
It's a revealed text like the Book of Mormon. If you want to know that it is a revealed text, like the Book of Mormon, talk to God about it (and feelings aren't sufficient here). If God tells you it is revealed and from him, then believe it. If not, don't. It's that simple.
This is the apologetic strategy of taking a testable claim (compare the source text to the translated text) and, when the test fails, shifting to an untestable claim (ignore the source text).
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die." - Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
He tried to translate it and couldn't. Feel free to make up what ever you want to explain his actions. I have provided evidence of what he did and you continue to respond with assertions of what he couldn't do.
We agree he could not translate Egyptian.
We agree on a few things in fact:
1) The papyri are Egyptian. 2) Joseph Smith couldn't read Egyptian Hieroglpyhics. 3) The Book of Abraham has NOTHING to do with the papyri.
And we are back to the same premise (and testability) of the Book of Mormon. If it is a revealed text and from God, God needs to answer you and tell you so. Otherwise, do not believe it. It always comes back to the same thing (and God is DOING this on purpose by the way). God wants you to exercise faith and actually speak with him. That is why we don't have the Gold Plates because he doesn't want people believing what the owner of the plates has to say - he wants us to believe what he has to say.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
He tried to translate it and couldn't. Feel free to make up what ever you want to explain his actions. I have provided evidence of what he did and you continue to respond with assertions of what he couldn't do.
We agree he could not translate Egyptian.
I see Tobin is bringing us, Joseph and God, Dumb and Dumber argument again.
1) The papyri are Egyptian. 2) Joseph Smith couldn't read Egyptian Hieroglpyhics. 3) The Book of Abraham has NOTHING to do with the papyri.
And we are back to the same premise (and testability) of the Book of Mormon. If it is a revealed text and from God, God needs to answer you and tell you so. Otherwise, do not believe it. It always comes back to the same thing (and God is DOING this on purpose by the way). God wants you to exercise faith and actually speak with him. That is why we don't have the Gold Plates because he doesn't want people believing what the owner of the plates has to say - he wants us to believe what he has to say.
What do you make of Joseph's claim that he was, in fact, translating from the papyrus?
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
Tobin wrote: That is why we don't have the Gold Plates because he doesn't want people believing what the owner of the plates has to say - he wants us to believe what he has to say.
After the fiasco with the Book of Abraham, do you really think if we had Joseph Smith's source plates for the Book of Mormon, the plates the witnesses actually saw and hefted, that the plates would actually match the Book of Mormon text? Or do you think the plates would be like the papyri and have nothing to do with the Book of Mormon?
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die." - Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
I have to ask, what planet are you from and not know that Joseph Smith translated by the gift and power of God? I'm sorry but your statement is frankly idiotic.