Bob Loblaw wrote: I am aware of that, but in both cases, Joseph claimed to possess the source document (plates and papyrus) used for the translation. If Tobin is right, Joseph was a moron who thought he was translating when he wasn't, and God was happy to let him think that.
Exactly. That's why I call tobin's argument, Joseph and God, Dumb and Dumber.
Actually, the U&T is meant to be used covered with a veil So Joseph Smith's face in the hat makes perfect sense. According to Joseph Smith, Moses wore the U&T to reveal the word of God to the children of Israel. This helps clarify the following verse. These devices have a blinding white light in which the word of the Lord is revealed through the U&T to the prophets.
And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.
What does this have to do with his having props/source documents? There are many accounts that Joseph used the stone in hat method to "translate," so I don't dispute any of that. It's irrelevant to my question.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
Bob Loblaw wrote:What does this have to do with his having props/source documents? There are many accounts that Joseph used the stone in hat method to "translate," so I don't dispute any of that. It's irrelevant to my question.
The accounts are just a record of man's dealings with God (for their posterity). A revelator is simply retelling by revealing those accounts that someone had long ago. The intent of these records are for our edification and instruction. Joseph Smith in revealing these accounts rarely looked at the plates and in the case of the papyri had no idea what they contained at all. At one point, Lehi and his descendant created records of their dealings with God. At one point, Abraham did the same. Joseph Smith simply revealed these accounts to us in English. The plates (and papyri) were simply the impetus for this revelation and I suspect were not necessary.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden ~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
Tobin wrote: and in the case of the papyri had no idea what they contained at all.
Then why did he say he knew exactly what was on the papyri?
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
Tobin wrote: and in the case of the papyri had no idea what they contained at all.
Then why did he say he knew exactly what was on the papyri?
Bravado. Joseph Smith often thought he knew more than he really did. After all, he was God's chosen prophet and could get rather full of himself.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:Bravado. Joseph Smith often thought he knew more than he really did. After all, he was God's chosen prophet and could get rather full of himself.
So, if the translation was bogus, what would you recommend be done with the facsimiles that are in the canonized scriptures?
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
Tobin wrote:Bravado. Joseph Smith often thought he knew more than he really did. After all, he was God's chosen prophet and could get rather full of himself.
So, if the translation was bogus, what would you recommend be done with the facsimiles that are in the canonized scriptures?
They should be removed from the Canon. Total garbage.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:They should be removed from the Canon. Total garbage.
I don't think I've ever heard a believing Mormon call canonized scripture "total garbage."
The problem here is that you have a prophet saying these are inspired translations, and all the prophets afterward have affirmed the same. The church claims to be led by prophets, seers, and revelators, all of whom have sat idly by while garbage was passed off as revealed scripture for more than 150 years.
Geez, you're more of an apostate than I am.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
Tobin wrote:They should be removed from the Canon. Total garbage.
I don't think I've ever heard a believing Mormon call canonized scripture "total garbage."
The problem here is that you have a prophet saying these are inspired translations, and all the prophets afterward have affirmed the same. The church claims to be led by prophets, seers, and revelators, all of whom have sat idly by while garbage was passed off as revealed scripture for more than 150 years.
Geez, you're more of an apostate than I am.
As I've said before, if you seek the truth and do the the best you can to follow God - you can never be apostate.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
